5 ms·

Relocating to Copenhagen considered harmful

14 points by cphhell 15y ago

cphhell 15y ago
Posting this from a throwaway account for obvious reasons, feel free to include same/different experiences or offer suggestions.
- route66 15y ago
  The situation you describe seems very recognizable througout a lot of european caitals or bigger agglomerations. During my last searches I encountered all the points you mention in Utrecht/NL, I hear comparable things about Amsterdam , Cologne, Frankfurt, Hamburg or Paris. So, welcome to a european capital! 1 hour travel to work, 5th floor without lift is the way to go: older houses far outside of the big cities. The suburbs are already filled with locals who do not want/cannot afford to live in the centers. I'm completely unaware of the situation in Denmark, but just looking on google maps tells me that maybe Roskilde or Farum could be places to look for. Also: you move to another country: other habits. If it's the situation on the housing market I cannot tell, but the million ways of being (un)friendly or (not) answering mails/letters, dealing with business transactions etc are the things which makes relocating difficult at heart, they are not just annoyances. I live in "another" country for some 20 years and will move to another one this month: I expect (and already experienced) a lot of impedance mismatches which could trigger a "considered harmful" post, but in the end I will have to adapt to enjoy the good things of it. Good luck anyway!
  - cipherpunk 15y ago
    Most of my friends live in Amager, Østerbro, etc. Anyone expecting to find affordable, modern accommodation easily in historic city centres is deluding themselves to a degree. Copenhagen has one of the more modern transportation systems in the world, so commuting is hardly an effort.
    - mst 15y ago
      It strikes me a big part of the problem may be where he mentions "30 minute drive" - there's a big difference between 30mins behind the wheel of a car and 60mins on the copenhagen transport system (which, yes, is stunning)
      - cphhell 15y ago
        I've always picked my location so that I don't have to commute more than half an hour each way but if that's what it takes to find a modern half-decent place in this city, I may consider living further.
- drats 15y ago
  This happened to me in another European country, I lucked out though and solved it myself. I would ask your employer for help if you haven't already. Even in a small company an email to all employees will tap you into their social networks and might unearth a few more websites or tips. Then there is couchsurfers, share-living with students for just two months while you hunt another place etc. Stick with it though; living in another country for a while is one of the best things you can do: "spend money on experiences not things".
Joakal 15y ago
You say it's a job offer, what had the employer suggested for accommodation? If they're willing to hire foreigners, I'd think they'd be able to accommodate you.
0x12 15y ago
If a small bump on the road like this is going to make you run then emigration is probably not for you. In time you'll have to deal with lots more friction and red tape than the simple act of scoring a place to live in an area where such places are scarce. If you do decide to stay, ask your colleagues if any of them would mind a roommate to cut their rent. In environments where housing is scarce doubling up is quite common. You might actually make someone happy to lower their effective rent a bit. The domain linked is funny, being an expat is never 'easy', there are always hang-ups and issues. The grass always seems to be a lot greener on the other side, once you arrive you realize quite quickly that each place has its advantages and its drawbacks. Easy is staying at home. Being an expat stands for broadening your world view and your skills at the expense of some inconvenience. Oh, and we actually like those old buildings, the one I'm writing this from was built in 1903.
- cphhell 15y ago
  > then emigration is probably not for you. I'd probably think the same if I hadn't done this exact same thing on three different countries already without breaking a sweat (relatively speaking).
  - 0x12 15y ago
    What countries were those? Have you mastered the language?
    - cphhell 15y ago
      Suffice to say that one of them was Spain, a country with one of the lowest percentages of English speakers in Europe, and me not speaking a word in Spanish at the time. Language is not the (main) issue.
rickmb 15y ago
Wow. Just wow. You've basically managed to reinforce just about any stereotype of an ignorant, unprepared American who shouldn't even be trying to live abroad. This quote says it all: > The building looked like a century old, fourth floor with no elevator (seems to be the norm almost everywhere) BTW, one of the first things you should figure out when relocating is how the local housing market works, otherwise you will get screwed. Guess what: it works the same way the other way around (what do you think a European will experience if they try to move to NYC unprepared?).
- 0x12 15y ago
  My least favorite bit is the part that says "I'm now seriously considering to cut my losses, call it quits and fly back to civilization.". As if civilization is determined by the housing situation and/or your own efforts required in order to get affordable housing, and any place that doesn't instantly give you a place to live within your means is not civilized.
  - cipherpunk 15y ago
    Nevermind that Copenhagen is arguably one of the nicest cities in the world, in one of the most "civilised" nations in the world. Ugh.
  - Uchikoma 15y ago
    Copenhagen is a wonderful city, with astonishing people. But if civilization is determined by whether a house has an elevator or not, I'm out of words.
- cphhell 15y ago
  > managed to reinforce just about any stereotype of an ignorant, unprepared American Thanks for the compliment but I'm a fellow European, not American. > who shouldn't even be trying to live abroad. Too bad I've tried it successfully three times already, one being in America.
  - cipherpunk 15y ago
thirsteh 15y ago
Copenhagen is one of the most expensive and over-crowded cities in the world. I'm not surprised that you couldn't find something in a rush. People sign their kids up for housing when they're born in this city. That said, it sounds like your scope is something like the inner city of Copenhagen. That's a terrible starting point. It's much easier to find an apartment in the greater Copenhagen area: Frederiksberg, Albertslund, Ballerup, Brøndby, Gentofte, Gladsaxe, Glostrup, Greve Strand, Herlev, Hvidovre, Ishøj, Lyngby-Taarbæk, Rødovre, Søllerød, Tårnby, Vallensbæk, Værløse. I am surprised, however, that your employer hasn't given you any references, tips, or even subsidized housing. Considering how hard it is to find housing in Copenhagen as a Dane, it seems strange they would expect a foreigner to just "figure it out". At least get a Dane to interpret all of the Danish apartment postings you're missing.
- dalke 15y ago
  The term you want is "highest occupancy rate" or "lowest vacancy rate" not "overcrowded." I've had a hard time finding good numbers for comparison. What I've seen suggests that Copenhagen's vacancy rate is about 2%, New York City is 2.9%, and Geneva is 0.25%.
- hmmokay 15y ago
  > Copenhagen is one of the most expensive and over-crowded cities in the world. Overcrowded? Copenhagen has 6,100 people per km2. New York City has 10,600, Paris has 20,900. Expensive? Sure, but not when it comes to housing. Renting an apartment in the city center is much cheaper in Copenhagen than in many other larger cities. > Considering how hard it is to find housing in Copenhagen as a Dane It used to be hard. Nowadays it isn't that bad. But you do need to ask around. What cphhell should have done is talked to his employer - and, like you said, he should broaden his scope. If I go to live in NYC I don't expect to get an apartment on Times Square.
  - loevborg 15y ago
    Population density is hardly a good measure. Munich has 4300 people/km2 and, let met tell you, it's hard to find an affordable flat there. NYC or Paris are hardly a good comparison, either. In this sense, Munich is very crowded. In October, in particular, the housing situation is even more difficult, given thousands of new students. I'm sure Copenhagen is somewhat similar.
sounddust 15y ago
The problem is that you sent e-mail instead of calling. I had the same experience in a nearby city, sending 30-40 emails for every 1 response. I finally decided to get a prepaid SIM and start calling people, and suddenly things became much easier. The person who I eventually rented an apartment from explained that she placed the ad in the morning, went to work, and received my call (and a few others) before she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies. The people who called already had appointments to see the apartment, so she wasn't even going to look at the mails unless those people were uninterested. She also remarked that she could tell from our brief initial conversation that I seemed like a nice person, which helped my chances; she doesn't get that benefit from an email conversation. Looking at it from a potential landlord's point of view, it makes sense that calling an ad that has just been placed is going to have the highest success rate; not everyone checks their mail as often as tech-minded people.
- huhtenberg 15y ago
  This ^ is the only reply that should've been here. Not all the "WTF were you expecting" meta-rants.
- cphhell 15y ago
  Sage advice, I'll probably try it. Still, this may fix my immediate problem but it doesn't do anything for the elephant in the room that, judging from the comments here, was hardly addressed: she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies. THIS is the real problem. At the end of the day (or the week) it doesn't matter how one out of the 100 candidates is selected; what matters is that 99 fools will have to keep looking. Finding housing shouldn't be like applying to Google.
  - sounddust 15y ago
    What are you claiming is the "real problem?" I'd argue that the housing market in CPH is no more scarce than any major city, and the only reason it seems so to you is because you were seriously handicapping yourself by not optimizing your approach. The fact that my landlord's ad received over 100 replies just indicates that there's a pool of "bottom performers" who are repeatedly trying to find housing by responding to ads despite the fact that they're doing some things wrong. Every new ad is going to receive a large number of responses from this same group of hopeless people. If they want to find a place, they're going to have to find out what's wrong with their approach and make some changes, just as I had to do.
cipherpunk 15y ago
I moved to Copenhagen from the UK in February and had no problem. You just approached it terribly -- Copenhagen is not in America, and different places have different ways of doing things. You can't just expect foreign cultures to play by your rules. You have to do your research and find out how the locals do it. I got to see several nice apartments and they were decently priced, and am spending approx. 10% of my monthly wage on rent. "Donating half of my paycheck to the taxman in order to live in a city overpriced by any measure is one thing." Copenhagen has some of the highest wages in Europe. It also has fantastic levels of social welfare, income equality, universal education and healthcare, etc. Whining about high taxes also just comes across as so bloody stereotypical.
- cphhell 15y ago
  Is the 10% before or after taxes? Would love to get a sense of your rent (or equiv. wage) range if there are no privacy concerns. The high taxes line was just a flippant remark, I can't really complain as I knew about it beforehand. Having said that, the perks that come from high taxes are of little value to an expat moving there for a 1-2 year gig.
  - cipherpunk 15y ago
    Before tax. Rent is 3400 DKK, in a nice house share with two developers. Our lease is up in January (original owner wants it back), but it has been nice otherwise. 10 months here. You can extrapolate the wage from this, but it's not high in the field at all.
JonnieCache 15y ago
>The building looked like a century old That's because it almost certainly is. 100 years is not an advanced age for a building outside the US. I have been to copenhagen and it is basically a paradise. You are lucky to be living there.
- hmmokay 15y ago
  Exactly - the century-old buildings is where people want to live, because on the inside they're modernized and on the outside it's great architecture. Here's a couple of street views from Islands Brygge, the neighborhood cphhell mentioned: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ie=UTF8&ll=55.667831,12.578058&spn=0.011061,0.036778&sll=55.663644,12.562222&sspn=0.010481,0.036778&t=m&vpsrc=0&radius=0.86&layer=c&cbll=55.668127,12.578483&panoid=nQ23Q-W3-HGrX1-QaQI81A&cbp=12,21.95,,0,-9.98&hnear=Islands+Brygge,+2300+K%C3%B8benhavn,+Danmark&z=15 http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ie=UTF8&#38... http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ll=55.667275,12.577372&spn=0.011061,0.036778&sll=55.663644,12.562222&sspn=0.010481,0.036778&t=m&vpsrc=6&radius=0.86&hq=islands+brygge&z=15&layer=c&cbll=55.666902,12.578234&panoid=q1yVOY4WXAA1lxtRF4JMHg&cbp=12,254.56,,0,-6.72 http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ll=55.66727...
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  100 years isn't even advanced age for east coast US cities.
- cphhell 15y ago
  "I have been to copenhagen" meaning, you rode the roller coasters in Tivoli? I'm sure visiting as an (affluent) tourist would be a much more pleasant experience.
Mz 15y ago
Culture shock. I was a military wife and lived in Germany for a bit less than four years. I had to deal with some culture shock when I first got there, but not nearly as bad as many Americans who go there: My mother is German, I already spoke some German, I knew from family stories that the furniture and stuff is different. One of the big issues Americans have with German homes: "The refrigerator is the size of a dorm refrigerator!!!!" This weirds out many Americans like it's the end of the world or something. Oh, and let's not get into the fact that many apartments are "unfurnished"* -- by that, they mean there is no refrigerator or stove or kitchen cabinets or light fixtures (just wires sticking out the ceiling) or kitchen sink (just a tap sticking out the wall). Germans move into rentals and buy appliances, kitchen cabinets, etc. The American housing office would cut deals with landlords and go in and supply the sink, stove, frig (an American style frig), etc. If you aren't military and don't have a housing office bridging some of these issues for you, hey, you get to cope on your own with the difference between what is normal in the US and what is normal in other places. If you aren't up for that, yeah, run back to the US and continue to measure "civilization" solely in terms of (your concept of) material wealth, without regard to food quality, actual culture, local history and so on. Please do so quickly, before doing yet more damage to the public image other nations have of us "ugly Americans". * This was more than 2 decades ago. I have no idea if things have changed since then. Feel free to give an update if you have more current info.
- Uchikoma 15y ago
  99% is still unfurnished, most Germans I know would never rent a furnished place unless they are students. Update: A kitchen is often the exception.
  - Mz 15y ago
    Most American rentals are unfurnished, but it comes with a fully outfitted kitchen and bathroom(s). The bedrooms and dining room typically have light fixtures in the middle of the ceiling. The only room without lights is typically the living room. We also have closets which are a great deal less common in Europe. Another big difference is that most American apartments have "wall to wall carpeting", something apparently so unusual in other countries that I often have to explain what on earth that means to foreign friends (the carpet is installed as part of the floor and nailed down). In your typical American apartment, you have vinyl flooring in front of the front door, in the bathrooms and in the kitchen. All other areas have wall to wall carpeting. From what I gather, wood, tile or similar flooring is far more common in other countries. I have respiratory problems and allergies. I wish I could find an apartment here with wood floors. Wall to wall carpeting is something I loathe. In the US, if you want wood and tile floors throughout the home to accommodate allergies and respiratory problems, you pretty much have buy your own house (or possibly live in New York, which I have no plans to do). In fact, wall to wall carpeting is so common here that even if you buy a house, you probably either have to rip out carpeting and install your own flooring or have the house custom built. I am betting that the lack of carpeting is something the author of this article would view as proof of being "a dive"/slum. Lack of carpeting does occur in some older American homes, often ones which were never upgraded. So it tends to get interpreted by Americans as a mark of poverty. Given my health issues, I tend to side more with some of my foreign friends who are sometimes appalled at the idea of wall to wall carpeting and find the idea disgusting and unclean. Last, I will note that I have lived in five different US states and every rental market has its quirks. I lived from age 3 to age 20 in the same town. When I first left home, moving to another part of the US was something of a shock as well. In short, anyone who feels strongly that the rental/housing market should behave X way should just stay where they are. (It won't stay the same where they are either, but the changes are likely to be more gradual and thus less shocking than moving elsewhere.) Peace.
lobster_johnson 15y ago
If Copenhagen is anything like other Scandinavian countries (I'm Norwegian), then it goes like this: - If the ad doesn't list dates and times when the apartment will be shown, you phone up the landlord and make an appointment. - You go and see the apartment. Obviously you will be in competition with other applicants. - Talk to the landlord and make a good impression -- do whatever is needed to make the owner pick you. - If you are interested in renting, you write down your contact details in the applicant book. - The landlord will go home and consider the applicants and phone up the lucky winner. - The landlord may require a credit assessment to determine your financial situation. Some landlords require references from earlier tenancies. - You meet the landlord to sign a formal lease (Scandinavian countries are pretty strict about landlord/tenant rights) and get the keys. When I was renting in NYC, things were different. None of the places I rented (which I found on Craigslist) would have open house dates; instead, you would make a personal appointment with the landlord. Also, landlords seemed to prefer email.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- michaelcampbell 15y ago
  Is the rental housing market so competitive in all/most of the bigger Scandanavian cities?
  - lobster_johnson 15y ago
    The housing market is quite competitive in Norway's bigger cities. Oslo in particular is crazy and expensive; as a student you basically can't afford your own flat, and almost everyone ends up sharing with several other people. I don't know what the situation is like in Sweden and Denmark at the moment.
    - cphhell 15y ago
      Not welcoming at all: http://universitypost.dk/article/new-internationals-angered-housing-chaos http://universitypost.dk/article/new-internationals-angered-... As I am not a student, my main problem is not so much the cost as (1) the scarcity and the inane "competition" it promotes and (2) the sad state of the apartments condition, at least compared to modern housing in other first-world countries.
biehl 15y ago
I guess you need to talk to people to calibrate your expectations before looking. $750/month is simply not much in Copenhagen, I'm sorry to say. I've looked a bit lately, and it is easy to find nice, 100sqm, modern flats with elevator etc. for 2000 Euros/month. It is possible but more difficult to find them for 1500. And to pay less one has to look for smaller, less modern etc. However, the buildings in Copenhagen are generally about 100 years old (the one I live in now is from around 1920). And elevators are very rare in these old buildings. And there is a large body of old, small appartments with tiny bathrooms like the one you describe (around Copenhagen they are even called "Copenhagen bathrooms") - so if one looks at flats in the cheaper end of the spectrum that is what one will find. With eg. postdoc salaries after tax around 3000 Euros it is possible to find a place to live for most expats.
- cphhell 15y ago
  Already replied on a sibling comment but once again, the $750/month was for a single room, no more than 15-20sqm, in a two-bedroom flat. If that's "on the cheaper end of the spectrum", I might have to negotiate a raise. The "Copenhagen bathroom" was the single worst turn off in the whole deal. Glad to know it's not like this everywhere in the city.
  - biehl 15y ago
    OK - $750/month for a room in a shared flat is actually reasonable. But if I were you, I would look at the rooms at around $1000/month. The selection should be much nicer and with fewer competitors. Then you can take your time to get advice from colleagues and probably find something equally nice for $750/month within 6 months.
burgerbrain 15y ago
The author is out of touch. 750/mo is what you might expect for a single person, low amenity place in a nice part of town in a mid-tier american city. What kind of housing market is this guy used to, rural Kansas?
- cphhell 15y ago
  Single guy, usually house sharing. Never paid more than 650/mo in the states for better living conditions. The 750/mo price was for a single room in a two bedroom apartment.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    In a nice part of town that is not unreasonable.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]

14 points by cphhell 15y ago

Posting this from a throwaway account for obvious reasons, feel free to include same/different experiences or offer suggestions.

route66 15y ago
The situation you describe seems very recognizable througout a lot of european caitals or bigger agglomerations. During my last searches I encountered all the points you mention in Utrecht/NL, I hear comparable things about Amsterdam , Cologne, Frankfurt, Hamburg or Paris. So, welcome to a european capital! 1 hour travel to work, 5th floor without lift is the way to go: older houses far outside of the big cities. The suburbs are already filled with locals who do not want/cannot afford to live in the centers. I'm completely unaware of the situation in Denmark, but just looking on google maps tells me that maybe Roskilde or Farum could be places to look for. Also: you move to another country: other habits. If it's the situation on the housing market I cannot tell, but the million ways of being (un)friendly or (not) answering mails/letters, dealing with business transactions etc are the things which makes relocating difficult at heart, they are not just annoyances. I live in "another" country for some 20 years and will move to another one this month: I expect (and already experienced) a lot of impedance mismatches which could trigger a "considered harmful" post, but in the end I will have to adapt to enjoy the good things of it. Good luck anyway!
- cipherpunk 15y ago
  Most of my friends live in Amager, Østerbro, etc. Anyone expecting to find affordable, modern accommodation easily in historic city centres is deluding themselves to a degree. Copenhagen has one of the more modern transportation systems in the world, so commuting is hardly an effort.
  - mst 15y ago
    It strikes me a big part of the problem may be where he mentions "30 minute drive" - there's a big difference between 30mins behind the wheel of a car and 60mins on the copenhagen transport system (which, yes, is stunning)
    - cphhell 15y ago
      I've always picked my location so that I don't have to commute more than half an hour each way but if that's what it takes to find a modern half-decent place in this city, I may consider living further.
drats 15y ago
This happened to me in another European country, I lucked out though and solved it myself. I would ask your employer for help if you haven't already. Even in a small company an email to all employees will tap you into their social networks and might unearth a few more websites or tips. Then there is couchsurfers, share-living with students for just two months while you hunt another place etc. Stick with it though; living in another country for a while is one of the best things you can do: "spend money on experiences not things".

Joakal 15y ago

You say it's a job offer, what had the employer suggested for accommodation? If they're willing to hire foreigners, I'd think they'd be able to accommodate you.

0x12 15y ago

If a small bump on the road like this is going to make you run then emigration is probably not for you. In time you'll have to deal with lots more friction and red tape than the simple act of scoring a place to live in an area where such places are scarce. If you do decide to stay, ask your colleagues if any of them would mind a roommate to cut their rent. In environments where housing is scarce doubling up is quite common. You might actually make someone happy to lower their effective rent a bit. The domain linked is funny, being an expat is never 'easy', there are always hang-ups and issues. The grass always seems to be a lot greener on the other side, once you arrive you realize quite quickly that each place has its advantages and its drawbacks. Easy is staying at home. Being an expat stands for broadening your world view and your skills at the expense of some inconvenience. Oh, and we actually like those old buildings, the one I'm writing this from was built in 1903.

cphhell 15y ago
> then emigration is probably not for you. I'd probably think the same if I hadn't done this exact same thing on three different countries already without breaking a sweat (relatively speaking).
- 0x12 15y ago
  What countries were those? Have you mastered the language?
  - cphhell 15y ago
    Suffice to say that one of them was Spain, a country with one of the lowest percentages of English speakers in Europe, and me not speaking a word in Spanish at the time. Language is not the (main) issue.

rickmb 15y ago

Wow. Just wow. You've basically managed to reinforce just about any stereotype of an ignorant, unprepared American who shouldn't even be trying to live abroad. This quote says it all: > The building looked like a century old, fourth floor with no elevator (seems to be the norm almost everywhere) BTW, one of the first things you should figure out when relocating is how the local housing market works, otherwise you will get screwed. Guess what: it works the same way the other way around (what do you think a European will experience if they try to move to NYC unprepared?).

0x12 15y ago
My least favorite bit is the part that says "I'm now seriously considering to cut my losses, call it quits and fly back to civilization.". As if civilization is determined by the housing situation and/or your own efforts required in order to get affordable housing, and any place that doesn't instantly give you a place to live within your means is not civilized.
- cipherpunk 15y ago
  Nevermind that Copenhagen is arguably one of the nicest cities in the world, in one of the most "civilised" nations in the world. Ugh.
- Uchikoma 15y ago
  Copenhagen is a wonderful city, with astonishing people. But if civilization is determined by whether a house has an elevator or not, I'm out of words.
cphhell 15y ago
> managed to reinforce just about any stereotype of an ignorant, unprepared American Thanks for the compliment but I'm a fellow European, not American. > who shouldn't even be trying to live abroad. Too bad I've tried it successfully three times already, one being in America.
- cipherpunk 15y ago

thirsteh 15y ago

Copenhagen is one of the most expensive and over-crowded cities in the world. I'm not surprised that you couldn't find something in a rush. People sign their kids up for housing when they're born in this city. That said, it sounds like your scope is something like the inner city of Copenhagen. That's a terrible starting point. It's much easier to find an apartment in the greater Copenhagen area: Frederiksberg, Albertslund, Ballerup, Brøndby, Gentofte, Gladsaxe, Glostrup, Greve Strand, Herlev, Hvidovre, Ishøj, Lyngby-Taarbæk, Rødovre, Søllerød, Tårnby, Vallensbæk, Værløse. I am surprised, however, that your employer hasn't given you any references, tips, or even subsidized housing. Considering how hard it is to find housing in Copenhagen as a Dane, it seems strange they would expect a foreigner to just "figure it out". At least get a Dane to interpret all of the Danish apartment postings you're missing.

dalke 15y ago
The term you want is "highest occupancy rate" or "lowest vacancy rate" not "overcrowded." I've had a hard time finding good numbers for comparison. What I've seen suggests that Copenhagen's vacancy rate is about 2%, New York City is 2.9%, and Geneva is 0.25%.
hmmokay 15y ago
> Copenhagen is one of the most expensive and over-crowded cities in the world. Overcrowded? Copenhagen has 6,100 people per km2. New York City has 10,600, Paris has 20,900. Expensive? Sure, but not when it comes to housing. Renting an apartment in the city center is much cheaper in Copenhagen than in many other larger cities. > Considering how hard it is to find housing in Copenhagen as a Dane It used to be hard. Nowadays it isn't that bad. But you do need to ask around. What cphhell should have done is talked to his employer - and, like you said, he should broaden his scope. If I go to live in NYC I don't expect to get an apartment on Times Square.
- loevborg 15y ago
  Population density is hardly a good measure. Munich has 4300 people/km2 and, let met tell you, it's hard to find an affordable flat there. NYC or Paris are hardly a good comparison, either. In this sense, Munich is very crowded. In October, in particular, the housing situation is even more difficult, given thousands of new students. I'm sure Copenhagen is somewhat similar.

sounddust 15y ago

The problem is that you sent e-mail instead of calling. I had the same experience in a nearby city, sending 30-40 emails for every 1 response. I finally decided to get a prepaid SIM and start calling people, and suddenly things became much easier. The person who I eventually rented an apartment from explained that she placed the ad in the morning, went to work, and received my call (and a few others) before she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies. The people who called already had appointments to see the apartment, so she wasn't even going to look at the mails unless those people were uninterested. She also remarked that she could tell from our brief initial conversation that I seemed like a nice person, which helped my chances; she doesn't get that benefit from an email conversation. Looking at it from a potential landlord's point of view, it makes sense that calling an ad that has just been placed is going to have the highest success rate; not everyone checks their mail as often as tech-minded people.

huhtenberg 15y ago
This ^ is the only reply that should've been here. Not all the "WTF were you expecting" meta-rants.
cphhell 15y ago
Sage advice, I'll probably try it. Still, this may fix my immediate problem but it doesn't do anything for the elephant in the room that, judging from the comments here, was hardly addressed: she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies. THIS is the real problem. At the end of the day (or the week) it doesn't matter how one out of the 100 candidates is selected; what matters is that 99 fools will have to keep looking. Finding housing shouldn't be like applying to Google.
- sounddust 15y ago
  What are you claiming is the "real problem?" I'd argue that the housing market in CPH is no more scarce than any major city, and the only reason it seems so to you is because you were seriously handicapping yourself by not optimizing your approach. The fact that my landlord's ad received over 100 replies just indicates that there's a pool of "bottom performers" who are repeatedly trying to find housing by responding to ads despite the fact that they're doing some things wrong. Every new ad is going to receive a large number of responses from this same group of hopeless people. If they want to find a place, they're going to have to find out what's wrong with their approach and make some changes, just as I had to do.

cipherpunk 15y ago

I moved to Copenhagen from the UK in February and had no problem. You just approached it terribly -- Copenhagen is not in America, and different places have different ways of doing things. You can't just expect foreign cultures to play by your rules. You have to do your research and find out how the locals do it. I got to see several nice apartments and they were decently priced, and am spending approx. 10% of my monthly wage on rent. "Donating half of my paycheck to the taxman in order to live in a city overpriced by any measure is one thing." Copenhagen has some of the highest wages in Europe. It also has fantastic levels of social welfare, income equality, universal education and healthcare, etc. Whining about high taxes also just comes across as so bloody stereotypical.

cphhell 15y ago
Is the 10% before or after taxes? Would love to get a sense of your rent (or equiv. wage) range if there are no privacy concerns. The high taxes line was just a flippant remark, I can't really complain as I knew about it beforehand. Having said that, the perks that come from high taxes are of little value to an expat moving there for a 1-2 year gig.
- cipherpunk 15y ago
  Before tax. Rent is 3400 DKK, in a nice house share with two developers. Our lease is up in January (original owner wants it back), but it has been nice otherwise. 10 months here. You can extrapolate the wage from this, but it's not high in the field at all.

JonnieCache 15y ago

>The building looked like a century old That's because it almost certainly is. 100 years is not an advanced age for a building outside the US. I have been to copenhagen and it is basically a paradise. You are lucky to be living there.

hmmokay 15y ago
Exactly - the century-old buildings is where people want to live, because on the inside they're modernized and on the outside it's great architecture. Here's a couple of street views from Islands Brygge, the neighborhood cphhell mentioned: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ie=UTF8&ll=55.667831,12.578058&spn=0.011061,0.036778&sll=55.663644,12.562222&sspn=0.010481,0.036778&t=m&vpsrc=0&radius=0.86&layer=c&cbll=55.668127,12.578483&panoid=nQ23Q-W3-HGrX1-QaQI81A&cbp=12,21.95,,0,-9.98&hnear=Islands+Brygge,+2300+K%C3%B8benhavn,+Danmark&z=15 http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ie=UTF8&#38... http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ll=55.667275,12.577372&spn=0.011061,0.036778&sll=55.663644,12.562222&sspn=0.010481,0.036778&t=m&vpsrc=6&radius=0.86&hq=islands+brygge&z=15&layer=c&cbll=55.666902,12.578234&panoid=q1yVOY4WXAA1lxtRF4JMHg&cbp=12,254.56,,0,-6.72 http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ll=55.66727...
burgerbrain 15y ago
100 years isn't even advanced age for east coast US cities.
cphhell 15y ago
"I have been to copenhagen" meaning, you rode the roller coasters in Tivoli? I'm sure visiting as an (affluent) tourist would be a much more pleasant experience.

Mz 15y ago

Culture shock. I was a military wife and lived in Germany for a bit less than four years. I had to deal with some culture shock when I first got there, but not nearly as bad as many Americans who go there: My mother is German, I already spoke some German, I knew from family stories that the furniture and stuff is different. One of the big issues Americans have with German homes: "The refrigerator is the size of a dorm refrigerator!!!!" This weirds out many Americans like it's the end of the world or something. Oh, and let's not get into the fact that many apartments are "unfurnished"* -- by that, they mean there is no refrigerator or stove or kitchen cabinets or light fixtures (just wires sticking out the ceiling) or kitchen sink (just a tap sticking out the wall). Germans move into rentals and buy appliances, kitchen cabinets, etc. The American housing office would cut deals with landlords and go in and supply the sink, stove, frig (an American style frig), etc. If you aren't military and don't have a housing office bridging some of these issues for you, hey, you get to cope on your own with the difference between what is normal in the US and what is normal in other places. If you aren't up for that, yeah, run back to the US and continue to measure "civilization" solely in terms of (your concept of) material wealth, without regard to food quality, actual culture, local history and so on. Please do so quickly, before doing yet more damage to the public image other nations have of us "ugly Americans". * This was more than 2 decades ago. I have no idea if things have changed since then. Feel free to give an update if you have more current info.

Uchikoma 15y ago
99% is still unfurnished, most Germans I know would never rent a furnished place unless they are students. Update: A kitchen is often the exception.
- Mz 15y ago
  Most American rentals are unfurnished, but it comes with a fully outfitted kitchen and bathroom(s). The bedrooms and dining room typically have light fixtures in the middle of the ceiling. The only room without lights is typically the living room. We also have closets which are a great deal less common in Europe. Another big difference is that most American apartments have "wall to wall carpeting", something apparently so unusual in other countries that I often have to explain what on earth that means to foreign friends (the carpet is installed as part of the floor and nailed down). In your typical American apartment, you have vinyl flooring in front of the front door, in the bathrooms and in the kitchen. All other areas have wall to wall carpeting. From what I gather, wood, tile or similar flooring is far more common in other countries. I have respiratory problems and allergies. I wish I could find an apartment here with wood floors. Wall to wall carpeting is something I loathe. In the US, if you want wood and tile floors throughout the home to accommodate allergies and respiratory problems, you pretty much have buy your own house (or possibly live in New York, which I have no plans to do). In fact, wall to wall carpeting is so common here that even if you buy a house, you probably either have to rip out carpeting and install your own flooring or have the house custom built. I am betting that the lack of carpeting is something the author of this article would view as proof of being "a dive"/slum. Lack of carpeting does occur in some older American homes, often ones which were never upgraded. So it tends to get interpreted by Americans as a mark of poverty. Given my health issues, I tend to side more with some of my foreign friends who are sometimes appalled at the idea of wall to wall carpeting and find the idea disgusting and unclean. Last, I will note that I have lived in five different US states and every rental market has its quirks. I lived from age 3 to age 20 in the same town. When I first left home, moving to another part of the US was something of a shock as well. In short, anyone who feels strongly that the rental/housing market should behave X way should just stay where they are. (It won't stay the same where they are either, but the changes are likely to be more gradual and thus less shocking than moving elsewhere.) Peace.

lobster_johnson 15y ago

If Copenhagen is anything like other Scandinavian countries (I'm Norwegian), then it goes like this: - If the ad doesn't list dates and times when the apartment will be shown, you phone up the landlord and make an appointment. - You go and see the apartment. Obviously you will be in competition with other applicants. - Talk to the landlord and make a good impression -- do whatever is needed to make the owner pick you. - If you are interested in renting, you write down your contact details in the applicant book. - The landlord will go home and consider the applicants and phone up the lucky winner. - The landlord may require a credit assessment to determine your financial situation. Some landlords require references from earlier tenancies. - You meet the landlord to sign a formal lease (Scandinavian countries are pretty strict about landlord/tenant rights) and get the keys. When I was renting in NYC, things were different. None of the places I rented (which I found on Craigslist) would have open house dates; instead, you would make a personal appointment with the landlord. Also, landlords seemed to prefer email.

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michaelcampbell 15y ago
Is the rental housing market so competitive in all/most of the bigger Scandanavian cities?
- lobster_johnson 15y ago
  The housing market is quite competitive in Norway's bigger cities. Oslo in particular is crazy and expensive; as a student you basically can't afford your own flat, and almost everyone ends up sharing with several other people. I don't know what the situation is like in Sweden and Denmark at the moment.
  - cphhell 15y ago
    Not welcoming at all: http://universitypost.dk/article/new-internationals-angered-housing-chaos http://universitypost.dk/article/new-internationals-angered-... As I am not a student, my main problem is not so much the cost as (1) the scarcity and the inane "competition" it promotes and (2) the sad state of the apartments condition, at least compared to modern housing in other first-world countries.

biehl 15y ago

I guess you need to talk to people to calibrate your expectations before looking. $750/month is simply not much in Copenhagen, I'm sorry to say. I've looked a bit lately, and it is easy to find nice, 100sqm, modern flats with elevator etc. for 2000 Euros/month. It is possible but more difficult to find them for 1500. And to pay less one has to look for smaller, less modern etc. However, the buildings in Copenhagen are generally about 100 years old (the one I live in now is from around 1920). And elevators are very rare in these old buildings. And there is a large body of old, small appartments with tiny bathrooms like the one you describe (around Copenhagen they are even called "Copenhagen bathrooms") - so if one looks at flats in the cheaper end of the spectrum that is what one will find. With eg. postdoc salaries after tax around 3000 Euros it is possible to find a place to live for most expats.

cphhell 15y ago
Already replied on a sibling comment but once again, the $750/month was for a single room, no more than 15-20sqm, in a two-bedroom flat. If that's "on the cheaper end of the spectrum", I might have to negotiate a raise. The "Copenhagen bathroom" was the single worst turn off in the whole deal. Glad to know it's not like this everywhere in the city.
- biehl 15y ago
  OK - $750/month for a room in a shared flat is actually reasonable. But if I were you, I would look at the rooms at around $1000/month. The selection should be much nicer and with fewer competitors. Then you can take your time to get advice from colleagues and probably find something equally nice for $750/month within 6 months.

burgerbrain 15y ago

The author is out of touch. 750/mo is what you might expect for a single person, low amenity place in a nice part of town in a mid-tier american city. What kind of housing market is this guy used to, rural Kansas?

cphhell 15y ago
Single guy, usually house sharing. Never paid more than 650/mo in the states for better living conditions. The 750/mo price was for a single room in a two bedroom apartment.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  In a nice part of town that is not unreasonable.
- deleted 15y ago
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