36 ms·

The frenzied world of rare watches

69 points by adam 4y ago

jacquesm 4y ago
If you want an idea of how crazy this can get: https://www.chronext.com/patek-philippe/nautilus/5990-1a-001/V46293 https://www.chronext.com/patek-philippe/nautilus/5990-1a-001...
- noja 4y ago
  €449,000 <-- wtf! that's a thousand separator
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    Shows up as 577,960 USD for me. EDIT: required javascript, clearly price discriminating.
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  Over half a million IN STEEL. Jesus.
  - Aunche 4y ago
    Ironically, steel watches often cost more than their gold counterparts these days despite retailing for less.
newaccount2021 4y ago
blakesterz 4y ago
I guess it's like any other collectable, just way WAY more expensive. Though I'm not sure what's lost by wearing it? "Such market conditions have presented a dilemma for collectors who actually want to show off their popular models, knowing the message that will send to other connoisseurs. “If you wear them, you’re an idiot, ” says one collector. “Either you paid five times retail, or you bought it retail and you’re too stupid to have flipped it.”"
- Aea 4y ago
  You're risking damage, you're risking theft, you're paying higher insurance premiums in either case, etc, etc.
  - rosndo 4y ago
    Damage isn’t a huge problem, watches tend to be pretty sturdy and mere scratches aren’t going to hurt resale value in most cases (unless you have them repaired!) Theft on the other hand is a pretty big concern, I just had a 100k patek ripped off my wrist. I’m very lucky though, the local store manager was sympathetic and managed to help me skip the queue for a (slightly more desirable) replacement, effectively nullifying any financial damage. Lesson learned, not walking around with uninsured watches no matter how nice the area is. Insurance premiums aren’t too bad though.
    - Aea 4y ago
      Insurance on a $100K watch through Hodinkee is around $1400 a year, although I'm sure you can get a better deal. If you're an enthusiast then you're paying for peace of mind. If you're an investor then that's the equivalent of a 1.4% management fee per year. The price action right now is absolutely ridiculous, but if you already bought at say 5x retail then that dramatically eats into your potential profits. It's just not worth it, you shove it into a safe and never let it see the light of day.
      - Ferrotin 4y ago
        If you just want to invest or collect you can get cheaper insurance with clauses about keeping the watches in a safe deposit box.
      - rosndo 4y ago
        You can find waay more attractive premiums through traditional insurance brokers than via Hodinkee, but depending on the size of your collection it might not be worth the hassle as finding a decent traditional option is a headache unless you know someone who’s already gone through the trouble.
pmoriarty 4y ago
I wonder how many of these are counterfeit.
- bri3d 4y ago
  I think that amongst the "high end," counterfeits are probably not that common. Dealers tend to have a reputation to maintain and even the best clones are easily distinguishable once the case-back is opened up and the movement inspected. There are a few rare Rolex models with "1:1" clones which can have an authentic movement installed. There may be some "high profile" counterfeits of these pieces floating around, but it's hard to say. I think that in the mid-market, counterfeits are probably more common than we would hope. Modern Rolex and especially Panerai clones are quite good, far from the Canal Street "folex" type watches of old. I bet that a large number of Panerai watches seen worn are fake. Panerai have an especially major problem with this because for years, they used commodity movements from ETA, sometimes lightly decorated (although sometimes not - see the "Brooklyn Bridge" Panerai scandal), rather than proprietary movements like Rolex. So movements were widely cloned, and for an even more accurate copy, one could engrave an authentic ETA movement with the Panerai finish and have an extremely difficult fake. This hobby is surprisingly open and very interesting - you can find forums like Replica Watch Info or /r/RepTime and learn in great detail the specific, minute differences between each replica factory's attempt at a counterfeit vs. the original.
  - grog454 4y ago
    > learn in great detail the specific, minute differences between each replica factory's attempt at a counterfeit vs. the original. Can you provide some links to examples?
    - Bud 4y ago
      Google for "fake Rolex detection" and there's a lot of quality content on the first page of hits. This page seems to have some especially nice tips: https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-blog/rolex-info/the-top-ways-to-spot-a-fake-rolex.html https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-blog/rolex-info/the-top-wa...
UmYeahNo 4y ago
I've been a fan of budget Seiko mechanical watches from the 60's and 70's. Most of the time they run well, servicing isn't terribly expensive, and you can get them for usually a few hundred dollars, maybe a grand for a really nice specimen. What's cool about them is you can decipher the serial number [0] to the month and year they were made, so they can commemorate an event, even if it happened a long time ago. But you do have to watch out for counterfeits. [1] [0] https://retroseiko.com/seiko-serial.htm https://retroseiko.com/seiko-serial.htm [1] https://www.watchesguild.com/articles/Fake-Seiko-Watch https://www.watchesguild.com/articles/Fake-Seiko-Watch Edited to fix grammar
- jacquesm 4y ago
  I have one of these, a '5' and it still keeps time just fine after many years. It's a completely mechanical watch, no batteries to replace and no frills. It will likely outlive me.
  - UmYeahNo 4y ago
    Seiko 5's are great, rock solid, last forever. My dad handed down his Seiko 5 to me, it was a 1982 model, that still runs like a champ. Take that Apple Watch we'll see if you're still running in 2062.
    - smcl 4y ago
      I bought a new Seiko 5 that gradually started running faster to the extent that after a couple of years it's now couple of seconds fast every minute. So after a day or so it's pretty far off the actual time. I have an Apple Watch now which is very nice for doing sports or sneakily firing off messages during meetings, but when I got the Seiko I was determined that if it held firm I would use it as long as required. Maybe I should get it serviced, it could be a very easy fix but I felt really let down. So yeah, seems a little bit YMMV. The Apple Watch has its drawbacks and definitely has a finite lifespan with little hope of repair in the event of a failure, but it doesn't let me down in the one thing a watch is supposed to do.
nightowl_games 4y ago
I bought a Casio F91W so I can turn my phone off at night and use the watch for an alarm clock. I'm happy to have the most popular watch in the world. It's simple, cheap, reliable, and has a retro look that has grown on me.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  When I "got into watches" a decade ago, I got a bunch of interesting looking ones from Gearbest I think (today it'd be Aliexpress). Mechanical, quartz, retro, futuristic, large & small, multi-dial crazy kitchy contraptions and plain classy ones. Got it happily in and out of my system for couple of hundred bucks total, probably 12-18 or so different pieces :). Don't understand paying more than, say $300-400 for a watch, absolute MAX - I think there's a point up to which you get more reliability/features/functionality, and a point after which you don't. My favourite / most expensive watch is still the Citizen BlueAngel Navihawk (gift when I was taking flight lessons before my enthusiasm phase). It's also however by far the most finicky / least reliable of the bunch, so go figure :-/
  - grog454 4y ago
    > Don't understand paying more than, say $300-400 for a watch, absolute MAX Based on some of the other posts in this thread it seems like there are some people who wouldn't understand paying less than $3000-4000. Interesting divergence for the same hobby!
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    > Don't understand paying more than, say $300-400 for a watch, absolute MAX - I think there's a point up to which you get more reliability/features/functionality, and a point after which you don't. People spend $3,000 for a watch so that they can show off that they have so much money that they can piss away $3,000 on a device that tells time. I dunno...maybe I'm just a lot more pragmatic with my money. I can understand a watch being a fashion accessory, but then that's just looks. Knowing the extreme precision going on inside the watch doesn't make it look any nicer from the outside. My money needs to go to something I can acknowledge with my senses in some way. Watch internals don't do that.
zucked 4y ago
I came into collecting modest watches around 2010. There was certainly a renewed interest in mechanical watches at the time, a lot of it being driven by things like MaleFashionAdvice on Reddit. I believe MFA had a significant hand in rescuing Seiko from obscurity with the SNK809 and SKX007. Old Seiko mechanical chronographs like the 6139 could be had readily for less than a thousand dollars. I had a beautifully restored one I bought and sold for around $300. The same watch is worth at least three times that today. At that time, it was still possible to acquire steel Rolexes at "modest" prices. As a goal to celebrate my (future) career achievements, I set my sights on a birth year Submariner - which were attainable at the $3,500+ price points at that time. You can't really buy a Submariner for less than $10k today. As mentioned in the article, Rolex dealers and others play crazy games where stainless models are virtually unobtanium. Even trickle down brands (Tudor, for example) have ridden the wave. I can no longer afford, nor do I want to afford, a birth year submariner. To me, the beauty in those watches is that they are tools; they were built to serve a purpose. I ended up lucking into a Tudor Pelagos Left Hand Drive. The ultimate tool watch - light titanium, great lume, etc. I wear it. I wear it hard. It's been with me for dozens of life momentous events. When the watch craze passes, I hope I can pass it down to my kiddo as a reminder of my existence.
- animalgonzales 4y ago
  this. the speculation around watches right now is completely unhinged. my Rolex Date 34mm sold for $3k in excellent condition three years ago. the same watch now sells for nearly $6k.
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  Re: built for a purpose, I think a lot of folks today just see Rolex as a luxury brand, but when Sean Connery walked out of the waves in Dr No wearing a Rolex, it was because it was precisely the sort of robust, fault-tolerant timepiece a super-spy WOULD wear. Moreover, back then, they weren't NEARLY so expensive. Rolex's prices have drastically outpaced inflation FOR SURE. I had thought I'd buy a Subbie, too, but even at the turn of the century they had gotten a bit nuts. I opted for a Seamaster instead, at HALF the price. >I can pass it down to my kiddo As I noted uptopic, my first fancy watch was a 1970s Rolex I inherited from MY dad. Someone will inherit it from me. My friend C. has his grandfather's steel Rolex; his son will inherit that one. That's a nice thing about mechs you can't really get out of electronics.
cletus 4y ago
So I really like mechanical watches but I've kind of lost interest because it's nigh-on impossible to buy anything new (unless you're a high net worth individual) and the secondary market is utterly insane. Example: Rolex Daytona in steel retails for ~$13,000. You can buy that from the store and immediately sell it on the secondary market for $30,000+. The Patel Phillippe Nautilus 5711A is similar ($25-30,000 retail, $75,000+ secondary). As it happens when the current Rolex Daytona came out a few years ago the market wasn't anywhere near as hot and the market was flooded with people flipping the old model for the new. I happened to buy one of the old Daytonas for $10,000. Last time I checked it sells on the secondary market for $35,000. It's nuts. For anyone who is interested in this, the plae I would start is with only these two brands: Rolex (first) and Patel Phillippe (second). They completely dominate any sort of demand and have a healthy secondary market. With vintage watches you get into all sorts of weird preferences that make massive differences in value and some of those details can be pretty minor (eg rail dials [1]). Some go for astronomical prices, most notably the Paul Newman Daytonas [2], which are funny because when they were production watches they typically sat on shelves for years because no one wanted them. It's a fascinating world because what you discover is that Rolex are absolute masters of brand management. Like they are absolutely second to none. Omega, for example, produces some high quality watches, sometimes much better than the Rolex equivalent from a pure utility POV (eg Planet Ocean over DSSD). But Omega produces too many watches and too many models. Rolex quite famously has very limited product lines, which is fantastic for a secondary market. Rolex watches really are almost as liquid as cash. The other interesting thing is you get into the pedigree and history of each of these watches. For example, GMT watches came about in the 1960s to solve a need as pilots started crossing time zones. The Daytona was for race car drivers. Submariners were (and are) for divers. Sure they'r emore of a fashion item now but the history is fascinating. [1]: https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-blog/resources/rolex-rail-dial-definition.html https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-blog/resources/rolex-rail-... [2]: https://www.bobswatches.com/paul-newman-rolex-daytona https://www.bobswatches.com/paul-newman-rolex-daytona
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  >>So I really like mechanical watches but I've kind of lost interest because it's nigh-on impossible to buy anything new (unless you're a high net worth individual) As a sanity/reality check, I think we really really need to distinguish "Mechanical Watch" (which can be gotten for as low as $25USD for a crappy cheap but functional and self-winding mechanical piece), and "Rolex" :->
Alex3917 4y ago
Watches are a good example of the fact that, past a certain point, the only thing you can really do with money is paying other people to do your hobbies for you. Like you could learn how to make mechanical watches yourself, but wait, no, why not pay someone else to take up that hobby for you. At the same time, if you actually like doing your own hobbies then money loses its utility pretty quickly.
- throw8383833jj 4y ago
  I'm a newbie on this subject. can you really make your own watch? don't you need to buy all the pieces for it? or need a blacksmith shop or something? how much would it cost for someone to build a watch from scratch with no workshop or prior pieces on hand?
  - solveit 4y ago
    What people call watchmaking is actually usually watch assembling/repairing. As you say, you would need to be a good part of an entire supply chain to be able to make a watch in any real sense.
    - kop316 4y ago
      If you are curious on actually making a watch movement, I recommend looking at George Daniel's book "Watchmaking". It is a very well put together book, but is also very technical.
- nightski 4y ago
  In my experience hobbies are typically far more expensive than paying someone else to do it purely due to economies of scale.
  - random314 4y ago
    Not for veblen goods
randomhodler84 4y ago
What is the allure of these things? They keep worse time that an ntp synced phone, have no internet connectivity and few features. It’s all conspicuous consumption, right? If you know, you know — a way to signal wealth without being too brazen.
- Helitio 4y ago
  It's about appreciation of the craft itself. Those watches have a fundamental cultural value to us. Keeping time is now very easy and cheap but those watches reflect the history of keeping time. And there is a tremendous amount of craftsmanship in them. Older ones are only handmade and even modern watches from high class manufacturer are still made by watchmakers. No one buys them if they don't care or don't have the money. Those watches have a lot of personal skill embedded in them. It reflects the opposite of mass production. Feel free to look for good watchmaker docus on yt.
- maigret 4y ago
  Did you never want something because it’s nice and inspiring? A sports car, a big Lego, a cap of your sport hero, a computer full of LED? Did you want this only to impress others? Have you had such a watch on your wrist and felt how it wore? Once you start learning about how those are built etc this becomes a small hobby that’s very nice to enjoy in all the trouble nowadays. Of course some wealthy people will buy those just because they can afford them, but those are not the collector enthusiasts who built the watch culture that allowed those brands to grow to where they are now. Watch enthusiasts will say all tech is conspicuous consumption because it lasts so little and loses value very quick. There is little more sustainable than a Rolex that still wears nice after 50 years, and can probably hold 100 if taken care of.
  - randomhodler84 4y ago
    No, none of those things. And I have absolutely no interest in impressing others. I own basically nothing except 256-bit numbers. Never owned a watch. If you saw me IRL you would think I am a bum. It’s much better that way to hide in plane sight. I agree that a lot of tech is conspicuous consumption — phones are classic example. I hadn’t considered the longevity of the devices. This does increase their value.
lunaru 4y ago
A rare watch is an IYKYK item and the iconic pieces are immediately noticeable from across the room. I do wonder if the deflation in asset prices (driven by increase in interest rates) will put downward pressure on some of the craziness right now. But for someone who is outside looking in, and wondering what the fuss is all about: A watch, especially Patek Philippe is much better for signaling status to those you want to send that signal to, while completely being unnoticeable by an audience from whom you don't want negative attention. At the same time, it appreciates like fine art that you can take with you on your wrist. It has a lot of the characteristics of investment assets that are desirable. It's crypto v0.1.
- anjel 4y ago
  See also the booming Rep (replica) Watch scene, where $100-300 gets you a very passable knockoff PP that signals the same, especially from across the room. In California, IYKYK, but so do the streeet thugs. $200k is a nice payoff for 30 seconds worth of risk.¹ [1]https://archive.ph/MY0Hb https://archive.ph/MY0Hb
ubermonkey 4y ago
I wore exclusively mechanical watches for most of my life, starting with a Rolex I inherited from my dad in the mid-80s. When he bought it, Rolex wasn't yet as insanely upmarket as they've become. It was kind of the obvious token of upper-middle-class success of the era. Dad's is the two-tone DateJust on what Rolex calls a "Jubilee" bracelet, and you've seen the color scheme and overall look on a million knock-off Citizens and Seikos. Rolex SAYS you're supposed to service these annually, but even when I wore it daily I didn't do that. I think it's been serviced maybe 3 or 4 times since I've had it; aside from a replaced mainspring a few years back, it runs fine and keeps time as good as any mechanical. That's kind of the appeal of Rolex, or at least it was in the 60s and 70s: they're VERY VERY robust, so you especially see them on wrists of successful people in jobs that would be hard on a less robust watch. (Thinks chefs, or contractors, or -- like my dad -- veterinarians.) I had a good dot-com era and bought a couple of my own, but nothing in precious metals or super expensive. And then, a few years ago, I was training for a half marathon and wanted a running device with GPS. I ended up with a gen-1 Apple Watch, and the damn thing was so HANDY that I upgraded to a fancier (steel, sapphire crystal) model for Series 3, and now I almost never wear the fancy mechanicals. I still LOVE them -- it's very cool that humans figured out how to keep time using springs and gears! -- but for day to day wear, it's almost always the Apple now.
- MarkMarine 4y ago
  Opposite for me. I don’t like wearing a watch in the evening, and I always forgot to charge the Apple Watch because it would be by the sink where I prepped dinner or somewhere. I never have to worry about charging my mechanical. I wear a brand that people obsessed with watches that appreciate don’t care about (so they lose value) but are mechanically “perfect.” Not a status symbol, I don’t have to worry about wearing it on vacation or anything. It’s a prized possession because of it’s utility.
  - thoms_a 4y ago
    Have to chime in with my agreement here. As an engineer, to me the beauty of the mechanical watch lies in its embodiment of "form follows function". I read this entire article as I find the horology and the hobbyists fascinating, but my passion is strictly that of an engineer for his tool. I like robust, well made tools by companies that value craftsmanship and longevity. Status, collectability and such are superfluous in my estimation. Now, the history of a watch is important, but that is a personal thing which you create with your own watch. Any watch can have its own story, and the most important story is the one you're living with your own watch, whether it be a Patek Phillipe or a Casio.
smackeyacky 4y ago
I have been watching a lot of youtube videos from "wristwatch revival", Marshall has an oddly soothing, breezy voiceover as he services mechanical watches. Its kind of like Bob Ross. The workmanship in even prosaic mechanical watches is neat to see as he disassembles them.
- thom 4y ago
  It was a weird crossing of streams when I first saw his watch channel, because I'd only known him as a Magic: the Gathering commentator and streamer. I can't even say "better known" given the relative subscriber numbers.
tempnow987 4y ago
I'm a big fan of timex analog watches (not mechanical) for what its worth. They are much much less expensive than any of these here.
- adamomada 4y ago
  You just reminded me, the other day I learned that Bill Gates, a man who could presumably have any watch in the world he wanted, has (or had recently) a $50 quartz diver made by Casio on his wrist. It’s actually a pretty nice-looking watch, too (Casio Duro)
bri3d 4y ago
Cars are in the exact same place. Everything, even "mid-range" or "practical" cars, has gone ballistic valuation-wise, and owners are left trying to figure out whether to drive their cars or mothball them.
overtonwhy 4y ago
Ultra wealthy people obsessed with fancy jewelry while 12% of the world doesn't have electricity at home. Sad. Please put your resources to work doing something beneficial for society. Maybe this film scene can move your heart: https://youtu.be/W9vj2Wf57rQ https://youtu.be/W9vj2Wf57rQ How many lives could that watch have saved?
- anm89 4y ago
  What a cartoonish view.
RichardHeart 4y ago
I've got $8M of watches. Their utility to me is just to brag about them. Which is funny, because I'm only met with downvotes whenever I do :). But therein lies the rub. At a distance, people hate, but up close, they love. It's a perceived distance to cooperation. There's ingroup profit in hate at a distance. But when you can join a better in group, or add a new asset to the one you're in, it turns to love. Thus, I consider collectibles of all forms, a combination of social value plus a dash of scarcity mindset. Also, I believe the top is in, and watch values will go down along side equities with rising interest rates.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  “I have two retirements worth of watches” is obviously the kind of bragging that puts people off. It’s purely a show of higher social status which reminds them of suffering in their own life — and how they will be unable to retire no matter how hard they work. You’re making a triviality of their entire struggle in life. That kind of garish wealth display has led to the downfall and deaths of many aristocrats throughout history.
- mynameishere 4y ago
  That's nice. I've got $8M of baseball cards. Says right here in this book.
- clpm4j 4y ago
  https://richardheart.com/ https://richardheart.com/ Are you for real? You look like someone straight out of central casting for the next ponzi scheme docu-series on Netflix.
  - RichardHeart 4y ago
    You're half right? thehighestofstakes.com
- iamben 4y ago
  That's great! Do you have a favourite? Do you store them or wear them? What's your daily driver? To a much lesser extent (financially!) I was a bit of a sneakerhead. I still have unworn pairs but recently I've made a thing of wearing everything I own (because life is short!). But man, I horded! So curious about your collection though!
aaron695 4y ago
anm89 4y ago
Watches are high status beanie babies.
password4321 4y ago
Watches are yet another YouTube subculture: https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCWxRZGPejdW2l-H19_QCbmQ https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCWxRZGPejdW2l-H19_QCbmQ

69 points by adam 4y ago

If you want an idea of how crazy this can get: https://www.chronext.com/patek-philippe/nautilus/5990-1a-001/V46293 https://www.chronext.com/patek-philippe/nautilus/5990-1a-001...

noja 4y ago
€449,000 <-- wtf! that's a thousand separator
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  Shows up as 577,960 USD for me. EDIT: required javascript, clearly price discriminating.
ubermonkey 4y ago
Over half a million IN STEEL. Jesus.
- Aunche 4y ago
  Ironically, steel watches often cost more than their gold counterparts these days despite retailing for less.

newaccount2021 4y ago

blakesterz 4y ago

I guess it's like any other collectable, just way WAY more expensive. Though I'm not sure what's lost by wearing it? "Such market conditions have presented a dilemma for collectors who actually want to show off their popular models, knowing the message that will send to other connoisseurs. “If you wear them, you’re an idiot, ” says one collector. “Either you paid five times retail, or you bought it retail and you’re too stupid to have flipped it.”"

Aea 4y ago
You're risking damage, you're risking theft, you're paying higher insurance premiums in either case, etc, etc.
- rosndo 4y ago
  Damage isn’t a huge problem, watches tend to be pretty sturdy and mere scratches aren’t going to hurt resale value in most cases (unless you have them repaired!) Theft on the other hand is a pretty big concern, I just had a 100k patek ripped off my wrist. I’m very lucky though, the local store manager was sympathetic and managed to help me skip the queue for a (slightly more desirable) replacement, effectively nullifying any financial damage. Lesson learned, not walking around with uninsured watches no matter how nice the area is. Insurance premiums aren’t too bad though.
  - Aea 4y ago
    Insurance on a $100K watch through Hodinkee is around $1400 a year, although I'm sure you can get a better deal. If you're an enthusiast then you're paying for peace of mind. If you're an investor then that's the equivalent of a 1.4% management fee per year. The price action right now is absolutely ridiculous, but if you already bought at say 5x retail then that dramatically eats into your potential profits. It's just not worth it, you shove it into a safe and never let it see the light of day.
    - Ferrotin 4y ago
      If you just want to invest or collect you can get cheaper insurance with clauses about keeping the watches in a safe deposit box.
    - rosndo 4y ago
      You can find waay more attractive premiums through traditional insurance brokers than via Hodinkee, but depending on the size of your collection it might not be worth the hassle as finding a decent traditional option is a headache unless you know someone who’s already gone through the trouble.

pmoriarty 4y ago

I wonder how many of these are counterfeit.

bri3d 4y ago
I think that amongst the "high end," counterfeits are probably not that common. Dealers tend to have a reputation to maintain and even the best clones are easily distinguishable once the case-back is opened up and the movement inspected. There are a few rare Rolex models with "1:1" clones which can have an authentic movement installed. There may be some "high profile" counterfeits of these pieces floating around, but it's hard to say. I think that in the mid-market, counterfeits are probably more common than we would hope. Modern Rolex and especially Panerai clones are quite good, far from the Canal Street "folex" type watches of old. I bet that a large number of Panerai watches seen worn are fake. Panerai have an especially major problem with this because for years, they used commodity movements from ETA, sometimes lightly decorated (although sometimes not - see the "Brooklyn Bridge" Panerai scandal), rather than proprietary movements like Rolex. So movements were widely cloned, and for an even more accurate copy, one could engrave an authentic ETA movement with the Panerai finish and have an extremely difficult fake. This hobby is surprisingly open and very interesting - you can find forums like Replica Watch Info or /r/RepTime and learn in great detail the specific, minute differences between each replica factory's attempt at a counterfeit vs. the original.
- grog454 4y ago
  > learn in great detail the specific, minute differences between each replica factory's attempt at a counterfeit vs. the original. Can you provide some links to examples?
  - Bud 4y ago
    Google for "fake Rolex detection" and there's a lot of quality content on the first page of hits. This page seems to have some especially nice tips: https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-blog/rolex-info/the-top-ways-to-spot-a-fake-rolex.html https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-blog/rolex-info/the-top-wa...

UmYeahNo 4y ago

I've been a fan of budget Seiko mechanical watches from the 60's and 70's. Most of the time they run well, servicing isn't terribly expensive, and you can get them for usually a few hundred dollars, maybe a grand for a really nice specimen. What's cool about them is you can decipher the serial number [0] to the month and year they were made, so they can commemorate an event, even if it happened a long time ago. But you do have to watch out for counterfeits. [1] [0] https://retroseiko.com/seiko-serial.htm https://retroseiko.com/seiko-serial.htm [1] https://www.watchesguild.com/articles/Fake-Seiko-Watch https://www.watchesguild.com/articles/Fake-Seiko-Watch Edited to fix grammar

jacquesm 4y ago
I have one of these, a '5' and it still keeps time just fine after many years. It's a completely mechanical watch, no batteries to replace and no frills. It will likely outlive me.
- UmYeahNo 4y ago
  Seiko 5's are great, rock solid, last forever. My dad handed down his Seiko 5 to me, it was a 1982 model, that still runs like a champ. Take that Apple Watch we'll see if you're still running in 2062.
  - smcl 4y ago
    I bought a new Seiko 5 that gradually started running faster to the extent that after a couple of years it's now couple of seconds fast every minute. So after a day or so it's pretty far off the actual time. I have an Apple Watch now which is very nice for doing sports or sneakily firing off messages during meetings, but when I got the Seiko I was determined that if it held firm I would use it as long as required. Maybe I should get it serviced, it could be a very easy fix but I felt really let down. So yeah, seems a little bit YMMV. The Apple Watch has its drawbacks and definitely has a finite lifespan with little hope of repair in the event of a failure, but it doesn't let me down in the one thing a watch is supposed to do.

nightowl_games 4y ago

I bought a Casio F91W so I can turn my phone off at night and use the watch for an alarm clock. I'm happy to have the most popular watch in the world. It's simple, cheap, reliable, and has a retro look that has grown on me.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
When I "got into watches" a decade ago, I got a bunch of interesting looking ones from Gearbest I think (today it'd be Aliexpress). Mechanical, quartz, retro, futuristic, large & small, multi-dial crazy kitchy contraptions and plain classy ones. Got it happily in and out of my system for couple of hundred bucks total, probably 12-18 or so different pieces :). Don't understand paying more than, say $300-400 for a watch, absolute MAX - I think there's a point up to which you get more reliability/features/functionality, and a point after which you don't. My favourite / most expensive watch is still the Citizen BlueAngel Navihawk (gift when I was taking flight lessons before my enthusiasm phase). It's also however by far the most finicky / least reliable of the bunch, so go figure :-/
- grog454 4y ago
  > Don't understand paying more than, say $300-400 for a watch, absolute MAX Based on some of the other posts in this thread it seems like there are some people who wouldn't understand paying less than $3000-4000. Interesting divergence for the same hobby!
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > Don't understand paying more than, say $300-400 for a watch, absolute MAX - I think there's a point up to which you get more reliability/features/functionality, and a point after which you don't. People spend $3,000 for a watch so that they can show off that they have so much money that they can piss away $3,000 on a device that tells time. I dunno...maybe I'm just a lot more pragmatic with my money. I can understand a watch being a fashion accessory, but then that's just looks. Knowing the extreme precision going on inside the watch doesn't make it look any nicer from the outside. My money needs to go to something I can acknowledge with my senses in some way. Watch internals don't do that.

zucked 4y ago

I came into collecting modest watches around 2010. There was certainly a renewed interest in mechanical watches at the time, a lot of it being driven by things like MaleFashionAdvice on Reddit. I believe MFA had a significant hand in rescuing Seiko from obscurity with the SNK809 and SKX007. Old Seiko mechanical chronographs like the 6139 could be had readily for less than a thousand dollars. I had a beautifully restored one I bought and sold for around $300. The same watch is worth at least three times that today. At that time, it was still possible to acquire steel Rolexes at "modest" prices. As a goal to celebrate my (future) career achievements, I set my sights on a birth year Submariner - which were attainable at the $3,500+ price points at that time. You can't really buy a Submariner for less than $10k today. As mentioned in the article, Rolex dealers and others play crazy games where stainless models are virtually unobtanium. Even trickle down brands (Tudor, for example) have ridden the wave. I can no longer afford, nor do I want to afford, a birth year submariner. To me, the beauty in those watches is that they are tools; they were built to serve a purpose. I ended up lucking into a Tudor Pelagos Left Hand Drive. The ultimate tool watch - light titanium, great lume, etc. I wear it. I wear it hard. It's been with me for dozens of life momentous events. When the watch craze passes, I hope I can pass it down to my kiddo as a reminder of my existence.

animalgonzales 4y ago
this. the speculation around watches right now is completely unhinged. my Rolex Date 34mm sold for $3k in excellent condition three years ago. the same watch now sells for nearly $6k.
ubermonkey 4y ago
Re: built for a purpose, I think a lot of folks today just see Rolex as a luxury brand, but when Sean Connery walked out of the waves in Dr No wearing a Rolex, it was because it was precisely the sort of robust, fault-tolerant timepiece a super-spy WOULD wear. Moreover, back then, they weren't NEARLY so expensive. Rolex's prices have drastically outpaced inflation FOR SURE. I had thought I'd buy a Subbie, too, but even at the turn of the century they had gotten a bit nuts. I opted for a Seamaster instead, at HALF the price. >I can pass it down to my kiddo As I noted uptopic, my first fancy watch was a 1970s Rolex I inherited from MY dad. Someone will inherit it from me. My friend C. has his grandfather's steel Rolex; his son will inherit that one. That's a nice thing about mechs you can't really get out of electronics.

cletus 4y ago

So I really like mechanical watches but I've kind of lost interest because it's nigh-on impossible to buy anything new (unless you're a high net worth individual) and the secondary market is utterly insane. Example: Rolex Daytona in steel retails for ~$13,000. You can buy that from the store and immediately sell it on the secondary market for $30,000+. The Patel Phillippe Nautilus 5711A is similar ($25-30,000 retail, $75,000+ secondary). As it happens when the current Rolex Daytona came out a few years ago the market wasn't anywhere near as hot and the market was flooded with people flipping the old model for the new. I happened to buy one of the old Daytonas for $10,000. Last time I checked it sells on the secondary market for $35,000. It's nuts. For anyone who is interested in this, the plae I would start is with only these two brands: Rolex (first) and Patel Phillippe (second). They completely dominate any sort of demand and have a healthy secondary market. With vintage watches you get into all sorts of weird preferences that make massive differences in value and some of those details can be pretty minor (eg rail dials [1]). Some go for astronomical prices, most notably the Paul Newman Daytonas [2], which are funny because when they were production watches they typically sat on shelves for years because no one wanted them. It's a fascinating world because what you discover is that Rolex are absolute masters of brand management. Like they are absolutely second to none. Omega, for example, produces some high quality watches, sometimes much better than the Rolex equivalent from a pure utility POV (eg Planet Ocean over DSSD). But Omega produces too many watches and too many models. Rolex quite famously has very limited product lines, which is fantastic for a secondary market. Rolex watches really are almost as liquid as cash. The other interesting thing is you get into the pedigree and history of each of these watches. For example, GMT watches came about in the 1960s to solve a need as pilots started crossing time zones. The Daytona was for race car drivers. Submariners were (and are) for divers. Sure they'r emore of a fashion item now but the history is fascinating. [1]: https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-blog/resources/rolex-rail-dial-definition.html https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-blog/resources/rolex-rail-... [2]: https://www.bobswatches.com/paul-newman-rolex-daytona https://www.bobswatches.com/paul-newman-rolex-daytona

NikolaNovak 4y ago
>>So I really like mechanical watches but I've kind of lost interest because it's nigh-on impossible to buy anything new (unless you're a high net worth individual) As a sanity/reality check, I think we really really need to distinguish "Mechanical Watch" (which can be gotten for as low as $25USD for a crappy cheap but functional and self-winding mechanical piece), and "Rolex" :->

Alex3917 4y ago

Watches are a good example of the fact that, past a certain point, the only thing you can really do with money is paying other people to do your hobbies for you. Like you could learn how to make mechanical watches yourself, but wait, no, why not pay someone else to take up that hobby for you. At the same time, if you actually like doing your own hobbies then money loses its utility pretty quickly.

throw8383833jj 4y ago
I'm a newbie on this subject. can you really make your own watch? don't you need to buy all the pieces for it? or need a blacksmith shop or something? how much would it cost for someone to build a watch from scratch with no workshop or prior pieces on hand?
- solveit 4y ago
  What people call watchmaking is actually usually watch assembling/repairing. As you say, you would need to be a good part of an entire supply chain to be able to make a watch in any real sense.
  - kop316 4y ago
    If you are curious on actually making a watch movement, I recommend looking at George Daniel's book "Watchmaking". It is a very well put together book, but is also very technical.
nightski 4y ago
In my experience hobbies are typically far more expensive than paying someone else to do it purely due to economies of scale.
- random314 4y ago
  Not for veblen goods

randomhodler84 4y ago

What is the allure of these things? They keep worse time that an ntp synced phone, have no internet connectivity and few features. It’s all conspicuous consumption, right? If you know, you know — a way to signal wealth without being too brazen.

Helitio 4y ago
It's about appreciation of the craft itself. Those watches have a fundamental cultural value to us. Keeping time is now very easy and cheap but those watches reflect the history of keeping time. And there is a tremendous amount of craftsmanship in them. Older ones are only handmade and even modern watches from high class manufacturer are still made by watchmakers. No one buys them if they don't care or don't have the money. Those watches have a lot of personal skill embedded in them. It reflects the opposite of mass production. Feel free to look for good watchmaker docus on yt.
maigret 4y ago
Did you never want something because it’s nice and inspiring? A sports car, a big Lego, a cap of your sport hero, a computer full of LED? Did you want this only to impress others? Have you had such a watch on your wrist and felt how it wore? Once you start learning about how those are built etc this becomes a small hobby that’s very nice to enjoy in all the trouble nowadays. Of course some wealthy people will buy those just because they can afford them, but those are not the collector enthusiasts who built the watch culture that allowed those brands to grow to where they are now. Watch enthusiasts will say all tech is conspicuous consumption because it lasts so little and loses value very quick. There is little more sustainable than a Rolex that still wears nice after 50 years, and can probably hold 100 if taken care of.
- randomhodler84 4y ago
  No, none of those things. And I have absolutely no interest in impressing others. I own basically nothing except 256-bit numbers. Never owned a watch. If you saw me IRL you would think I am a bum. It’s much better that way to hide in plane sight. I agree that a lot of tech is conspicuous consumption — phones are classic example. I hadn’t considered the longevity of the devices. This does increase their value.

lunaru 4y ago

A rare watch is an IYKYK item and the iconic pieces are immediately noticeable from across the room. I do wonder if the deflation in asset prices (driven by increase in interest rates) will put downward pressure on some of the craziness right now. But for someone who is outside looking in, and wondering what the fuss is all about: A watch, especially Patek Philippe is much better for signaling status to those you want to send that signal to, while completely being unnoticeable by an audience from whom you don't want negative attention. At the same time, it appreciates like fine art that you can take with you on your wrist. It has a lot of the characteristics of investment assets that are desirable. It's crypto v0.1.

anjel 4y ago
See also the booming Rep (replica) Watch scene, where $100-300 gets you a very passable knockoff PP that signals the same, especially from across the room. In California, IYKYK, but so do the streeet thugs. $200k is a nice payoff for 30 seconds worth of risk.¹ [1]https://archive.ph/MY0Hb https://archive.ph/MY0Hb

ubermonkey 4y ago

I wore exclusively mechanical watches for most of my life, starting with a Rolex I inherited from my dad in the mid-80s. When he bought it, Rolex wasn't yet as insanely upmarket as they've become. It was kind of the obvious token of upper-middle-class success of the era. Dad's is the two-tone DateJust on what Rolex calls a "Jubilee" bracelet, and you've seen the color scheme and overall look on a million knock-off Citizens and Seikos. Rolex SAYS you're supposed to service these annually, but even when I wore it daily I didn't do that. I think it's been serviced maybe 3 or 4 times since I've had it; aside from a replaced mainspring a few years back, it runs fine and keeps time as good as any mechanical. That's kind of the appeal of Rolex, or at least it was in the 60s and 70s: they're VERY VERY robust, so you especially see them on wrists of successful people in jobs that would be hard on a less robust watch. (Thinks chefs, or contractors, or -- like my dad -- veterinarians.) I had a good dot-com era and bought a couple of my own, but nothing in precious metals or super expensive. And then, a few years ago, I was training for a half marathon and wanted a running device with GPS. I ended up with a gen-1 Apple Watch, and the damn thing was so HANDY that I upgraded to a fancier (steel, sapphire crystal) model for Series 3, and now I almost never wear the fancy mechanicals. I still LOVE them -- it's very cool that humans figured out how to keep time using springs and gears! -- but for day to day wear, it's almost always the Apple now.

MarkMarine 4y ago
Opposite for me. I don’t like wearing a watch in the evening, and I always forgot to charge the Apple Watch because it would be by the sink where I prepped dinner or somewhere. I never have to worry about charging my mechanical. I wear a brand that people obsessed with watches that appreciate don’t care about (so they lose value) but are mechanically “perfect.” Not a status symbol, I don’t have to worry about wearing it on vacation or anything. It’s a prized possession because of it’s utility.
- thoms_a 4y ago
  Have to chime in with my agreement here. As an engineer, to me the beauty of the mechanical watch lies in its embodiment of "form follows function". I read this entire article as I find the horology and the hobbyists fascinating, but my passion is strictly that of an engineer for his tool. I like robust, well made tools by companies that value craftsmanship and longevity. Status, collectability and such are superfluous in my estimation. Now, the history of a watch is important, but that is a personal thing which you create with your own watch. Any watch can have its own story, and the most important story is the one you're living with your own watch, whether it be a Patek Phillipe or a Casio.

smackeyacky 4y ago

I have been watching a lot of youtube videos from "wristwatch revival", Marshall has an oddly soothing, breezy voiceover as he services mechanical watches. Its kind of like Bob Ross. The workmanship in even prosaic mechanical watches is neat to see as he disassembles them.

thom 4y ago
It was a weird crossing of streams when I first saw his watch channel, because I'd only known him as a Magic: the Gathering commentator and streamer. I can't even say "better known" given the relative subscriber numbers.

tempnow987 4y ago

I'm a big fan of timex analog watches (not mechanical) for what its worth. They are much much less expensive than any of these here.

adamomada 4y ago
You just reminded me, the other day I learned that Bill Gates, a man who could presumably have any watch in the world he wanted, has (or had recently) a $50 quartz diver made by Casio on his wrist. It’s actually a pretty nice-looking watch, too (Casio Duro)

bri3d 4y ago

Cars are in the exact same place. Everything, even "mid-range" or "practical" cars, has gone ballistic valuation-wise, and owners are left trying to figure out whether to drive their cars or mothball them.

overtonwhy 4y ago

Ultra wealthy people obsessed with fancy jewelry while 12% of the world doesn't have electricity at home. Sad. Please put your resources to work doing something beneficial for society. Maybe this film scene can move your heart: https://youtu.be/W9vj2Wf57rQ https://youtu.be/W9vj2Wf57rQ How many lives could that watch have saved?

anm89 4y ago
What a cartoonish view.

RichardHeart 4y ago

I've got $8M of watches. Their utility to me is just to brag about them. Which is funny, because I'm only met with downvotes whenever I do :). But therein lies the rub. At a distance, people hate, but up close, they love. It's a perceived distance to cooperation. There's ingroup profit in hate at a distance. But when you can join a better in group, or add a new asset to the one you're in, it turns to love. Thus, I consider collectibles of all forms, a combination of social value plus a dash of scarcity mindset. Also, I believe the top is in, and watch values will go down along side equities with rising interest rates.

zmgsabst 4y ago
“I have two retirements worth of watches” is obviously the kind of bragging that puts people off. It’s purely a show of higher social status which reminds them of suffering in their own life — and how they will be unable to retire no matter how hard they work. You’re making a triviality of their entire struggle in life. That kind of garish wealth display has led to the downfall and deaths of many aristocrats throughout history.
mynameishere 4y ago
That's nice. I've got $8M of baseball cards. Says right here in this book.
clpm4j 4y ago
https://richardheart.com/ https://richardheart.com/ Are you for real? You look like someone straight out of central casting for the next ponzi scheme docu-series on Netflix.
- RichardHeart 4y ago
  You're half right? thehighestofstakes.com
iamben 4y ago
That's great! Do you have a favourite? Do you store them or wear them? What's your daily driver? To a much lesser extent (financially!) I was a bit of a sneakerhead. I still have unworn pairs but recently I've made a thing of wearing everything I own (because life is short!). But man, I horded! So curious about your collection though!

aaron695 4y ago

anm89 4y ago

Watches are high status beanie babies.

password4321 4y ago

Watches are yet another YouTube subculture: https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCWxRZGPejdW2l-H19_QCbmQ https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCWxRZGPejdW2l-H19_QCbmQ