5 ms·

I went to college in the early 90s when it was 5x cheaper, inflation -adjusted. It was the best decision of my life. No way I'd be where I am without it. But t

by beej71 5y ago

I went to college in the early 90s when it was 5x cheaper, inflation -adjusted. It was the best decision of my life. No way I'd be where I am without it. But times and technology has changed. The antique system that is education needs to be completely upended. And, in the process, be made affordable again.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
30 states provide some means of a free community college education (eligibility limits in some case, for all in others). Get the other 20 on board, nuke student loan debt, and no longer have the government guarantee future debt for loans (which will drive down college costs). The system will then provide more value at lower cost to system participants (although it will be a painful adjustment process for bloated institutions that have fed off of government loans for decades). https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/08/free-college-is-now-a-reality-in-nearly-30-states.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/08/free-college-is-now-a-realit... https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/107044086-1649433548660-MapImage1.png?v=1649433575&ffmt=webp https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/107044086-164943354866...
- whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  > nuke student loan debt Do people who paid theirs off, get their money back?
  - coldpie 5y ago
    So did I. No, we don't, but it will still benefit you. When your peers are less beholden to their jobs because of their debt shackles, they can ask more of their employers, which will also raise your working conditions. Sometimes life isn't 100% fair, and that sucks and I'm sorry. But looking at it objectively, it's still an improvement for you. (And, "I suffered, so others must suffer, too" isn't a great way to set policy regardless.)
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Thank you for being a knowledgeable, decent human participating in a democracy. More of this is needed all around.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        The politically palatable way would be to give everyone $100k indiscriminately, not just people who took out college loans. It is never going to be politically popular to bail out people who studied literature by borrowing tens of thousands of dollars while other 18 year olds are going into the army or working as a trades’ apprentice.
        coldpie 5y ago
        Sure, I would support this policy, too, although I'm not certain it's actually more politically palatable.
    - gruez 5y ago
      So you'd agree with the federal government bailing out every mortgage holder out there, from people who own a shoebox apartment to someone in a 10 bd mansion? After all, >it will still benefit you. When your peers are less beholden to their jobs because of their debt shackles, they can ask more of their employers, which will also raise your working conditions. Sometimes life isn't 100% fair, and that sucks and I'm sorry. But looking at it objectively, it's still an improvement for you. (And, "I suffered, so others must suffer, too" isn't a great way to set policy regardless.)
      - coldpie 5y ago
        I'd want to see the specific proposal, but yeah, I'm definitely open to some idea like that.
    - whywhywhywhy 5y ago
      Seems extremely selfish that the functional members of society should be the ones to pick up the burden of your poor decisions and I don't really see a benefit of society if we did, I mean you don't have the skill or talent to pay it off now, are we really going to see your full potential when we bail you out of the only responsibility you actually do have?
brk 5y ago
I dropped out of college in the early 90s when many of the CS programs were teaching dated material. It was the best decision of my life, no way I'd be where I am if I had waited to graduate before getting started into a career. IMO, college is one of many possible options to success. They all have trade offs, and there is no universal answer that fits all of the addressable market. If you do not go to college, you have some benefits (no cost/debt, earlier involvement in an industry), but also some drawbacks (less of a social network, less insight into how some mechanisms of business and career work, etc.).
- xhkkffbf 5y ago
  Alas, the modern CS curriculum is still pretty dated. It's not that the courses are bad, they're just not that helpful. For instance, I like understanding how compilers work, but I'm never going to be on a compiler-building team. Nor will many of us because everyone just uses LLVM. But it's a big part of the curriculum. And the theory stuff is intriguing, but the modern machine doesn't behave like a Turing Machine and so the lessons are limited. At my local top-50 CS school, the one useful course on things like React, Angular and Vue, was pretty much cancelled because the Chairman apparently didn't want to "turn the place into a trade school." They refused to even give the adjunct an office.
  - saalweachter 5y ago
    The value of compilers/OS classes to a generic software developer isn't because you're going to spend a lot of time writing compilers or operating systems, it's because they help you understand what actually happens when your program executes.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    You seem to be complaining that your CS program is outdated because it teaches CS instead of Software Engineering or the programming trade. Kind of like complaining that a Material Science curriculum is dated because it teaches Material Science instead of Civil Engineering or the construction trade.
SantalBlush 5y ago
>education needs to be completely upended The idea that we should pay out of pocket for our own training before even knowing we'll break into a field is pretty absurd, if one takes a moment to think about it. Sure, that's the traditional approach for a few highly specialized fields, but by and large it's obviously going to cause a huge misallocation of resources, along with enormous debt.
- whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  Interns exist, it's just the middle class has become completely obsessed with the idea of college as a right of passage.

by beej71 5y ago

toomuchtodo 5y ago

30 states provide some means of a free community college education (eligibility limits in some case, for all in others). Get the other 20 on board, nuke student loan debt, and no longer have the government guarantee future debt for loans (which will drive down college costs). The system will then provide more value at lower cost to system participants (although it will be a painful adjustment process for bloated institutions that have fed off of government loans for decades). https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/08/free-college-is-now-a-reality-in-nearly-30-states.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/08/free-college-is-now-a-realit... https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/107044086-1649433548660-MapImage1.png?v=1649433575&ffmt=webp https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/107044086-164943354866...

whywhywhywhy 5y ago
> nuke student loan debt Do people who paid theirs off, get their money back?
- coldpie 5y ago
  So did I. No, we don't, but it will still benefit you. When your peers are less beholden to their jobs because of their debt shackles, they can ask more of their employers, which will also raise your working conditions. Sometimes life isn't 100% fair, and that sucks and I'm sorry. But looking at it objectively, it's still an improvement for you. (And, "I suffered, so others must suffer, too" isn't a great way to set policy regardless.)
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Thank you for being a knowledgeable, decent human participating in a democracy. More of this is needed all around.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      The politically palatable way would be to give everyone $100k indiscriminately, not just people who took out college loans. It is never going to be politically popular to bail out people who studied literature by borrowing tens of thousands of dollars while other 18 year olds are going into the army or working as a trades’ apprentice.
      - coldpie 5y ago
        Sure, I would support this policy, too, although I'm not certain it's actually more politically palatable.
  - gruez 5y ago
    So you'd agree with the federal government bailing out every mortgage holder out there, from people who own a shoebox apartment to someone in a 10 bd mansion? After all, >it will still benefit you. When your peers are less beholden to their jobs because of their debt shackles, they can ask more of their employers, which will also raise your working conditions. Sometimes life isn't 100% fair, and that sucks and I'm sorry. But looking at it objectively, it's still an improvement for you. (And, "I suffered, so others must suffer, too" isn't a great way to set policy regardless.)
    - coldpie 5y ago
      I'd want to see the specific proposal, but yeah, I'm definitely open to some idea like that.
  - whywhywhywhy 5y ago
    Seems extremely selfish that the functional members of society should be the ones to pick up the burden of your poor decisions and I don't really see a benefit of society if we did, I mean you don't have the skill or talent to pay it off now, are we really going to see your full potential when we bail you out of the only responsibility you actually do have?

brk 5y ago

I dropped out of college in the early 90s when many of the CS programs were teaching dated material. It was the best decision of my life, no way I'd be where I am if I had waited to graduate before getting started into a career. IMO, college is one of many possible options to success. They all have trade offs, and there is no universal answer that fits all of the addressable market. If you do not go to college, you have some benefits (no cost/debt, earlier involvement in an industry), but also some drawbacks (less of a social network, less insight into how some mechanisms of business and career work, etc.).

xhkkffbf 5y ago
Alas, the modern CS curriculum is still pretty dated. It's not that the courses are bad, they're just not that helpful. For instance, I like understanding how compilers work, but I'm never going to be on a compiler-building team. Nor will many of us because everyone just uses LLVM. But it's a big part of the curriculum. And the theory stuff is intriguing, but the modern machine doesn't behave like a Turing Machine and so the lessons are limited. At my local top-50 CS school, the one useful course on things like React, Angular and Vue, was pretty much cancelled because the Chairman apparently didn't want to "turn the place into a trade school." They refused to even give the adjunct an office.
- saalweachter 5y ago
  The value of compilers/OS classes to a generic software developer isn't because you're going to spend a lot of time writing compilers or operating systems, it's because they help you understand what actually happens when your program executes.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  You seem to be complaining that your CS program is outdated because it teaches CS instead of Software Engineering or the programming trade. Kind of like complaining that a Material Science curriculum is dated because it teaches Material Science instead of Civil Engineering or the construction trade.

SantalBlush 5y ago

>education needs to be completely upended The idea that we should pay out of pocket for our own training before even knowing we'll break into a field is pretty absurd, if one takes a moment to think about it. Sure, that's the traditional approach for a few highly specialized fields, but by and large it's obviously going to cause a huge misallocation of resources, along with enormous debt.

whywhywhywhy 5y ago
Interns exist, it's just the middle class has become completely obsessed with the idea of college as a right of passage.