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Getting strong audiophile equipment review vibes :) Did anyone do a blinded mechanical switch ABX test? I bet most would fail to differentiate except between t

by 323 5y ago

Getting strong audiophile equipment review vibes :) Did anyone do a blinded mechanical switch ABX test? I bet most would fail to differentiate except between the major categories - linear, buckle, dome, ...

notacoward 5y ago
> Getting strong audiophile equipment review vibes From the OP, or from the discussion here? Serious question. Because it's genuinely not clear which you mean (for me it's the latter).
- 323 5y ago
  In general, from the whole "mechanical switches" industry. OP is fine, he's measuring things. The audiophile industry also always includes "frequency response" graphs and all kinds of other measurements in their reviews, yet the whole field is still a bit of a sham.
robbedpeter 5y ago
This is closer to musician instrument preferences. The audio component of switch mechanics isn't as important to me as the tactile experience. Tiny changes in the springs can be felt, your keys will feel too weak or stiff. The mechanics of the switch will feel broken, wobbly, or tight. Check out high end electric pianos at your local music shop, and compare to $100 Wal-Mart kid keyboards. The resistance and smoothness and feedback from the keys integrate with muscle memory better (and in the case of pianos, graduated activation helps determine the volume of a note and sustain.) I don't know if typing with good switches helps with rsi, but it certainly helps with comfort and satisfaction. A good clarinet or trumpet or saxophone will have similar features to the feel of different types of mechanical keyboard switches. Sure, you can play decent music on cheap mass produced elementary school instruments, but it's going to objectively feel better playing a high end bespoke instrument. No jarring or disruptive aspects in the motion to interfere with the process of putting characters on the screen.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Johanx64 5y ago
  I don't think the comparison to digital piano keyboards is apt. The velocity sensitivity on a digital piano is of utmost importance, being able to "enter the MIDI velocities" accurately and consistently, often at very high speeds and correct timing and tempo is of utmost importance. And with cheap digital pianos this is borderline impossible to do well. While a for a PC keyboard, a basic membrane keyboard will do the job outside of maybe some very niche highest levels of competitive esports Mech keyboards and obsession with them are purely a luxury, hobby thing
  - arinlen 5y ago
    > Mech keyboards and obsession with them are purely a luxury, hobby thing I agree. The fact that your typical keycap set typically sells for more than some full blown keyboards is already a clear tell. However, I'd add that some properties of your typical mechanical keyboard are indeed very convenient. For instance, easily removable key caps and hotswappable switches do bring in the nice consequence of making keyboards easy to clean, maintain, and repair.
  - rgoulter 5y ago
    > While a for a PC keyboard, a basic membrane keyboard will do the job outside of maybe some very niche highest levels of competitive esports > > Mech keyboards and obsession with them are purely a luxury, hobby thing Some mechanical keyboards offer a symmetrical layout, and allow the thumb to use more than one key switch. Those are significant advantages for a keyboard user. (Since these are niche keyboards, they incidentally happen to have mechanical switches). Though, I think most people interested in mechanical keyboards stick to a keyboard with the same layout as the basic membrane keyboard. (Each to their own, I guess).
tristor 5y ago
I've been using mechanical keyboards since 1992. I can definitely tell the difference between major switch types, and I can also tell the differences between switches I'm familiar with. For the most part though, you're probably right that if you just sat down at an unknown keyboard and started typing you'd probably only be able to identify it's major type and whether or not you like the feel of it. Feel is subjective, but it does matter, and it's something worth exploring for people who spend 8+ hours every day using a keyboard. It can also have important impacts on ergonomics.
- arinlen 5y ago
  > Feel is subjective, but it does matter, and it's something worth exploring for people who spend 8+ hours every day using a keyboard. It can also have important impacts on ergonomics. Does this level of detail regarding feel really matter? I mean, all keyboards are usable and people do adapt to new/unfamiliar input devices, and it's not like laptops ship with high-action mechanical keyboards. And regarding ergonomics, the standard keyboard layout is renowned for not being stellar ergonomics-wise, so I'm skeptical regarding how relevant ergonomics is in this field. In fact, isn't a standard Microsoft Natural ergonomics keyboard way better than your typical mechanical switch keyboard?
  - tristor 5y ago
    > In fact, isn't a standard Microsoft Natural ergonomics keyboard way better than your typical mechanical switch keyboard? The switch type does not control the shape. In fact, one of the oldest and most respected ergonomic keyboard designs (Kinesis Advantage) uses mechanical switches. I use an IV-Works AV3 mechanical keyboard, which uses the Arisu layout, which is a modified Alice layout, which was modeled on the Microsoft Natural keyboard. Many people use split keyboards for ergonomics since they provide the ability to adjust the angle, and these are quite common in the mechanical keyboard world, with some of the better known designs being the ErgoDox and the ZSA Moonlander. Ergonomics is both a function of layout, as you point out, but also the key design because the key design determines key travel, weight, and whether or not you bottom out when typing, which can effect impact on your fingertips and finger joints, in addition to the impacts of layout on your wrists.
gotaquestion 5y ago
Constant subtle horn-tooting in his prose as well that's irritating. But from what I've seen on Reddit, there is a huge keyboard-phile community so I can understand the desire to clearly define the space. Although I don't know what they call themselves. Keyheads? Vectophiles?
jotux 5y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqai0_nnTgs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqai0_nnTgs
atoav 5y ago
I mean they are different in terms of force curve and all. Sure. I wouldn't tell cherry red and silent red apart just by their feel, and silver vs red might be hard as well, but all other types I had at home are pretty distinct. And I am not a mechanical keyboard afficionado. I own one mechanical keyboard for well over a decade. But I had to do with cherry switches on a non-keyboard related electronics project.
glitchc 5y ago
Each switch does have a different feel based on the spring constant, even within the same category. It's often hard to tell from one keypress, but fatigue becomes a key differentiator when typing all day. I found that out the hard way when a switch felt perfect in the tester kit, but rendered my fingers dead tired after a full day's work.

by 323 5y ago

notacoward 5y ago

> Getting strong audiophile equipment review vibes From the OP, or from the discussion here? Serious question. Because it's genuinely not clear which you mean (for me it's the latter).

323 5y ago
In general, from the whole "mechanical switches" industry. OP is fine, he's measuring things. The audiophile industry also always includes "frequency response" graphs and all kinds of other measurements in their reviews, yet the whole field is still a bit of a sham.

robbedpeter 5y ago

This is closer to musician instrument preferences. The audio component of switch mechanics isn't as important to me as the tactile experience. Tiny changes in the springs can be felt, your keys will feel too weak or stiff. The mechanics of the switch will feel broken, wobbly, or tight. Check out high end electric pianos at your local music shop, and compare to $100 Wal-Mart kid keyboards. The resistance and smoothness and feedback from the keys integrate with muscle memory better (and in the case of pianos, graduated activation helps determine the volume of a note and sustain.) I don't know if typing with good switches helps with rsi, but it certainly helps with comfort and satisfaction. A good clarinet or trumpet or saxophone will have similar features to the feel of different types of mechanical keyboard switches. Sure, you can play decent music on cheap mass produced elementary school instruments, but it's going to objectively feel better playing a high end bespoke instrument. No jarring or disruptive aspects in the motion to interfere with the process of putting characters on the screen.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Johanx64 5y ago
I don't think the comparison to digital piano keyboards is apt. The velocity sensitivity on a digital piano is of utmost importance, being able to "enter the MIDI velocities" accurately and consistently, often at very high speeds and correct timing and tempo is of utmost importance. And with cheap digital pianos this is borderline impossible to do well. While a for a PC keyboard, a basic membrane keyboard will do the job outside of maybe some very niche highest levels of competitive esports Mech keyboards and obsession with them are purely a luxury, hobby thing
- arinlen 5y ago
  > Mech keyboards and obsession with them are purely a luxury, hobby thing I agree. The fact that your typical keycap set typically sells for more than some full blown keyboards is already a clear tell. However, I'd add that some properties of your typical mechanical keyboard are indeed very convenient. For instance, easily removable key caps and hotswappable switches do bring in the nice consequence of making keyboards easy to clean, maintain, and repair.
- rgoulter 5y ago
  > While a for a PC keyboard, a basic membrane keyboard will do the job outside of maybe some very niche highest levels of competitive esports > > Mech keyboards and obsession with them are purely a luxury, hobby thing Some mechanical keyboards offer a symmetrical layout, and allow the thumb to use more than one key switch. Those are significant advantages for a keyboard user. (Since these are niche keyboards, they incidentally happen to have mechanical switches). Though, I think most people interested in mechanical keyboards stick to a keyboard with the same layout as the basic membrane keyboard. (Each to their own, I guess).

tristor 5y ago

I've been using mechanical keyboards since 1992. I can definitely tell the difference between major switch types, and I can also tell the differences between switches I'm familiar with. For the most part though, you're probably right that if you just sat down at an unknown keyboard and started typing you'd probably only be able to identify it's major type and whether or not you like the feel of it. Feel is subjective, but it does matter, and it's something worth exploring for people who spend 8+ hours every day using a keyboard. It can also have important impacts on ergonomics.

arinlen 5y ago
> Feel is subjective, but it does matter, and it's something worth exploring for people who spend 8+ hours every day using a keyboard. It can also have important impacts on ergonomics. Does this level of detail regarding feel really matter? I mean, all keyboards are usable and people do adapt to new/unfamiliar input devices, and it's not like laptops ship with high-action mechanical keyboards. And regarding ergonomics, the standard keyboard layout is renowned for not being stellar ergonomics-wise, so I'm skeptical regarding how relevant ergonomics is in this field. In fact, isn't a standard Microsoft Natural ergonomics keyboard way better than your typical mechanical switch keyboard?
- tristor 5y ago
  > In fact, isn't a standard Microsoft Natural ergonomics keyboard way better than your typical mechanical switch keyboard? The switch type does not control the shape. In fact, one of the oldest and most respected ergonomic keyboard designs (Kinesis Advantage) uses mechanical switches. I use an IV-Works AV3 mechanical keyboard, which uses the Arisu layout, which is a modified Alice layout, which was modeled on the Microsoft Natural keyboard. Many people use split keyboards for ergonomics since they provide the ability to adjust the angle, and these are quite common in the mechanical keyboard world, with some of the better known designs being the ErgoDox and the ZSA Moonlander. Ergonomics is both a function of layout, as you point out, but also the key design because the key design determines key travel, weight, and whether or not you bottom out when typing, which can effect impact on your fingertips and finger joints, in addition to the impacts of layout on your wrists.

gotaquestion 5y ago

Constant subtle horn-tooting in his prose as well that's irritating. But from what I've seen on Reddit, there is a huge keyboard-phile community so I can understand the desire to clearly define the space. Although I don't know what they call themselves. Keyheads? Vectophiles?

jotux 5y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqai0_nnTgs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqai0_nnTgs

atoav 5y ago

I mean they are different in terms of force curve and all. Sure. I wouldn't tell cherry red and silent red apart just by their feel, and silver vs red might be hard as well, but all other types I had at home are pretty distinct. And I am not a mechanical keyboard afficionado. I own one mechanical keyboard for well over a decade. But I had to do with cherry switches on a non-keyboard related electronics project.

glitchc 5y ago

Each switch does have a different feel based on the spring constant, even within the same category. It's often hard to tell from one keypress, but fatigue becomes a key differentiator when typing all day. I found that out the hard way when a switch felt perfect in the tester kit, but rendered my fingers dead tired after a full day's work.