11 ms·

My Taipei Quarantine

98 points by skrebbel 5y ago

WaxedChewbacca 5y ago
hunglee2 5y ago
pretty much the same experience I had arriving in Hong Kong last year. Zero covid is actually (and only) possible if you actually stop it from coming in at the borders. Near 100% chaperoning from airplane to quarantine hotel by hazmat attired public health workers. Unnerving and impressive, at the same time.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  It's essentially the same kind of security kabuki that we know from the TSA. Impressive, a nuisance at best, frightening at worst, and perfectly useless.
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    It's one of main the reasons that mainland China and Taiwan have orders of magnitude fewer deaths per capita than most places in the world.
    - DocTomoe 5y ago
      And yet, eventually, we will see the bug breaking through, now probably a whole different beast than we saw before, into a completely unprotected population (with - in the PRC - a vaccination we don't consider particularly good). In fact, it already is happening, see how Beijing and Shanghai have outbreaks. I sincerely hope I am wrong here, but it may well be that the zero covid countries will have saved the few and sacrificed the many, three years on, and provided a new reservoir for new, more deadly variants to evolve in.
      - pbazarnik 5y ago
        I'm in Taiwan and was here for a whole pandemic. Article is spot on but this response efficiency, visible now, was acquired over last 2 years of improvements. Taiwan had a luxury of foresight due to earlier experience with SARS, back channel information on virus developments in China thanks to proximity and countless business contacts and a favorable geographical location. Being an island it was very easy to isolate itself from the rest of the world. This may not have been possible for other countries. Zero COVID was a goal when efficiency of vaccines was still believed to be able to prevent transmission. Omicron appearance put an end to that. Taiwan's response was competent but there were several hickups: Taiwan was late to acquire vaccines due to their reliance on border closures. Delta variant sneaked through border controls due to lax airline stuff quarantine rules and some rule breaches (pilot going AWOL). There was cross resident infection in quarantine hotels due airborne transmission (red elevator) There were many overreactions: closed off outdoor parks, beaches and hiking routes despite evidence that outdoor transmission is very unlikely. Overall, solid B+ performance. Regarding more deadly variants: we can hope that evolutionary pressure we put on virus by isolating serious cases will not allow it. I hope Taiwan and rest of the world will learn from this experience so we are ready for a next outbreak (bird flu likely)
        DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
        If Taiwan only gets a B+, most countries must have failing grades.
        pbazarnik 5y ago
        It depends on criteria. For example, USA early vaccination ramp up is second to only United Emirates in the world. Taiwan was late in this particular aspect and quite panicked when some virus broke through quarantine measures (contained by quite heroic contact tracing efforts) https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
        DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
- bloodyplonker22 5y ago
  "Zero Covid" is only possible until, well, it's not possible. Look at China and their incredibly draconian CCP locking people down in Shanghai in their small apartments for a month (and ongoing). Are they going to do this every single time there is a covid outbreak? It's insanity, but the CCP will probably not want to admit they're wrong.
  - alephnan 5y ago
    Look at Japan Covid numbers before and after the Olympics. Japan was practically zero. And that was when Japan vaccination rates were below 10%. The vast majority of cases ( at fractions of what an American city has ) was in Tokyo, and Tokyo has 3-4x NYC’s population and atleast 3x the density , despite Cuomo’s constant “density” argument. Japan never had lockdowns. They just stopped allowing alcohol after 8pm. And also strict enforcement of people into the country. I was one of the last few hundred people into the country before it was entirely closed to non residents in 2021.
  - graeme 5y ago
    Note that Shanghai tried to ditch the zero covid policy and avoided taking action for ten days. So the infection grey large then central govt stepped in. Other chinese cities had outbreaks, reacted quickly and got rid of the virus. The Shanghai situation is atrocious but it isn’t representative of China’s policy or typical results.
    - hunglee2 5y ago
      true indeed, Shanghai tried to do it as close to Western style as possible, as the commentator implies is the way. They screwed up, and now have to lockdown.
  - hunglee2 5y ago
    it's totally possible, China has indeed proved it over these past two years. Infected people get over Covid in 2-4 weeks, these people have just got to be isolated. There probably is a tipping point where you cannot do it, but as case numbers are currently low, it is worth a shot. Most of China currently is going about it's business, w/ no lockdown
xvector 5y ago
I went to the Netherlands recently and COVID was almost a non-issue. No masks, crowded cities. Their society still seems to be intact, without having to enforce this level of draconian ridiculousness. It was disillusioning. This late in the pandemic, when everyone that wants a vaccine has received one, I really do think we are overreacting. Let's return to life as normal, keeping the positive developments like work from home around.
- hnhg 5y ago
  It was largely the same situation in Belgium, Germany and the UK while I was there. Masks only seemed to be required while travelling, and even in that case the UK only had requirements for international travel. Vaccines have largely taken the burden off the healthcare systems, particularly ICU, and so the virus can run its course for now.
- kmonsen 5y ago
  Isn’t it the same all over U.S.? Even here in the Bay Area I only need to wear a mask on public transport. Everything else is optional.
  - xvector 5y ago
    In my part of the Bay, everyone is wearing masks everywhere. It's kinda bizarre.
    - kmonsen 5y ago
      I still wear masks when I go to a store for a quick visit. It's entirely optional though and the mix is 50/50. I find this normal.
- skrebbel 5y ago
  Who are "we" in your comment?
- throwaway4good 5y ago
  I also went to Netherlands recently; no masks, crowded cities ... And returning to Germany I had to quarantine for 10 days - sick with covid.
netsharc 5y ago
It's odd that they're still insisting on cleaning surfaces, although it's been long concluded by e.g. the CDC (is it a settled science?) that infections from surfaces are very unlikely. But I guess if they're going for zero covid, then any little chance need to be reduced.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  If you're swamped with cases, only the dominant route of transmission matters. When you're going for zero cases, then all routes of transmission matter. US policy is to tolerate a high level of transmission in the community, so CDC's advice will be very different from advice given by public health authorities in counties that don't tolerate transmission.
skrebbel 5y ago
Meta: HN confuses me to the max, it says I submitted this article 1 hour ago but: - I would swear I had found it on HN in the first place - When I went back to HN to read its comments, I couldn't find it - So I (re?)submitted it All this was a few days ago iirc, not 1 hour :-)
- modeless 5y ago
  I believe there is a "second chance" queue that mods can put your article in for reposting later.
  - skrebbel 5y ago
    Ah right, thanks, that makes sense.
- deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
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bloodyplonker22 5y ago
Taiwan needs to consider removing the quarantine now that it looks like omicron is going to run its course there just like in Korea and Japan. One reason they are not removing it is because the government does not want to be seen as being "wrong" about covid policy. Even China's much more draconian lockdowns on Shanghai will probably not work to prevent the spread of omicron in the future. In both cases, it's a huge waste of resources and damaging to the economy and peoples' liberties.
- alephnan 5y ago
  > it's a huge waste of resources peoples' liberties Are you an actual resident in Asia or a Westerner armchair philosophizing what people in Asia actually want. Here’s a glimpse from actual Asian people, from a democratic country. These people here are being polite and aren’t saying outright, but a sentiment expressed here that’s pretty common is Asian people thinks it’s admirable that Americans have individual liberty, and acknowledge there are pros and cons to that. If you actually understood Asian culture and why these countries have these policies, then you’d know it’s not really a compliment. In Asia, maybe / kind-of means no. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ctmxV-yNhg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ctmxV-yNhg My partner is Taiwanese, and I am American. We moved Japan to during the pandemic because we don’t agree with the West and Americans’ attitude towards coronavirus. There is a lot of overlap between Taiwan and Japan, Taiwan being more “liberal” in some respects and Japan being conservative, but otherwise people from both countries on average prefer personal inconvenience for the collective good, especially given both of these cultures have a respect for the elderly. We prefer what you call “draconian” measures. Let people who are residents in Asia deal with their governments. Who said people want liberty above all else? Freedom requires responsibility, and America hasn’t been for a while. Worry about the host of problems in America, because Asia is doing just fine. People in the tourism industry are incentivized otherwise, but other people in Taiwan / Japan aren’t minding the inconveniences, so why are you? In fact, people are kind of enjoying the domestic venues without tourists, especially given the high propensity of Westerners who refuse to wear mask ( even when they are vaccinated ).
  - gagorder100 5y ago
whywhywhywhy 5y ago
Just seems utterly absurd. No one really cares about this stuff anymore in my country. Even the test center down the road fashioned from temporary buildings is sitting empty. Only about 10% are still wearing masks on the train anymore.
- Hasnep 5y ago
  Not to be rude, but how many people died in the process? There is a reason Taiwan had less than 20 deaths in the first year of the pandemic and still have less than 1000 in a country of 20 million while never having a lockdown. It's only absurd if you don't value people's lives over things like convenience.
AlchemistCamp 5y ago
> Every building and storefront had a QR code posted at the entrance for contact tracing, and people took care to scan it and text the central authority before going inside. Woe unto those who forgot their cell phone! As sensational and exciting as it might feel to write that, it's misleading. If you don't have your cell phone, you just grab a pen and fill out your phone number and the time on one of the cards they have right inside the door. Every place of business that has a QR code to scan also has the paper and pen option. I've filled in quite a few over the past couple of years when going to a convenience store after a workout. Considering it avoided both a mass outbreak and lockdowns, I'd say the system has worked out very well. There was some interesting work on making it maximally privacy-preserving, too!
- bloodyplonker22 5y ago
  >Considering it avoided both a mass outbreak Have you been following what is going on in Taiwan in terms of covid? There is a mass outbreak building up right now. Oh, and the contact tracing you are talking about -- are they going to start contact tracing the thousands of people who have covid now? How is that going to help?
  - AlchemistCamp 5y ago
    > Have you been following what is going on in Taiwan in terms of covid? Yes. It's where I've been from the beginning of the pandemic, all through last year, during the original SARS outbreak in 2002 and most of the years in between. The current wave is more contagious but quite a bit less lethal than the delta outbreak that Taiwan successfully stopped last summer via contact tracing and limited restrictions.
  - eloisius 5y ago
    Sounds like you really have an axe to grind all over this thread. I dare venture that you haven't been following the situation here that closely either. I'm in Taipei right now and have lived here for almost the entire pandemic. The "mass outbreak" was 13k new cases today. The cases are ramping up but hospitalizations and deaths are not. Everyone knows that omicron is not serious, and by all indications, the government is cautiously letting it rip this time. Yesterday they ended the QR code program. They've been continuously reducing quarantine for 'close contacts' of confirmed cases. It's down to 3 days at home quarantine, and then 4 days of self health management, during which you aren't supposed to go to the mall or things like that, but can still go to work. They've also reduced the number of contacts that they trace and which criteria qualify as "close contact." For two years while most of the rest of the world was in turmoil, life was almost normal here. I still went to the gym, went to restaurants, worked in an office, positive GDP growth. Things just carried on, and without a massive body count. And now, that's it's basically a cold, the population is mostly vaccinated, and there is no hope of ever maintaining "COVID-zero" the government is slowly easing restrictions without overloading the health system. Taiwan's COVID response should be hailed as genius, yet you still have blowhards that feel like they were right all along.
jwmoz 5y ago
I live in Taiwan. The gov response was the best I've experienced and heard about so far, compared to say the UK which was a shitshow. A year and a half ago now we did something like 10 days in a airbnb quarantine which was a challenge for me as I don't think I've ever stayed that long inside. Deliveries everyday, felt sorry for the staff dropping it at the door all the time but whatever. General life was good, everyone wears masks. QRs on doors and contact tracing. Only one small outbreak due to a Korean pilot that went drinking with some girls iirc. They had news from the CDC everyday. Then the vaccines came and most people got it sorted. Now the gov has opened up more and even dropped the QR code system. Only one annoyance I have is I need a booster shot to train at the gym. A couple of my partner's friends have caught covid and it will start to pass through. Pretty happy with the response compared to somewhere like the UK or currently China and Shanghai.
keyme 5y ago
Cool level of insanity. I've traveled the world this last year, and have certainly experienced all sorts of stupidity, ridiculous bureaucracy and corruption in this regard. Like OP I discovered that I enjoy going through these Kafkaesque mazes, and found it pretty fun. Literally never knowing if I'm passing a border post or having to turn back (spoiler: I never turned back). That said, I didn't go to any of the east Asian countries, because it would have been "too much" (as is clear from this post). In Latin America and Africa, all the "covid policy" was just a clear corruption opportunity being taken advantage of. More things you could "do wrong" is a big boon for every corrupt official. In Africa, border personnel were happy to take a bribe as your "PCR test" (and the one time I actually did a PCR test, they did not accept it, they only wanted the bribe). Police were happy to enforce the mask rules (on white tourists only, in the middle of the night). Businesses were happy to convert to a "PCR testing clinic" by painting the walls white, sticking something in your nose, and giving you a piece of paper for money (even if you wanted a real PCR test, you couldn't know it's real). You see the picture. Thing is, I've learned that the overt corruption in these "developing" countries is just less sophisticated version of what's going on in the rest of the world. So, the next time you encounter bullshit like this, just try to ask yourself why are they doing this? Who gains from this? Etc. It's a fun game, and sometimes you come to interesting realizations.
- josephg 5y ago
  > Thing is, I've learned that the overt corruption in these "developing" countries is just less sophisticated version of what's going on in the rest of the world. There is plenty of real corruption going on in the rich world. But there's also plenty of examples of good governance and good health advice making it into government policy. Its far too cynical to label all governmental responses to covid as corruption. Maybe thats true in Latin America, but Latin America and Taiwan are very different places. If all countries had corrupt and ineffective covid policies, all countries would have ended up with similar covid mortality figures. But the data[1] shows a vast gap between the best and worst countries re: covid deaths. Plenty of countries made a good showing - and that speaks well for their ability to turn medical advice into action. Taiwan has had 36 deaths per million people, compared to 3048 in the USA. You say their quarantine system is "insanity". If it were up to me, I'd pick Taiwan's "insane" covid policies every time. [1] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
fasthandle 5y ago
Meanwhile in Shanghai https://www.reddit.com/r/shanghai/comments/ucznt8/i_fixed_emma_leanings_shanghai_promotional_video/ https://www.reddit.com/r/shanghai/comments/ucznt8/i_fixed_em...
jake_morrison 5y ago
I have been living in Taiwan through the pandemic. The response has been exemplary. Life has been normal, other than the need to wear masks and scan QR codes when entering shops to enable contact tracing. There has been very little actual risk and fear of infection. We haven't had a lockdown, and until recently, cases were below 10 per day. You can go a long way with good quarantine and testing policies. Now the cat is out of the bag, and Omicron will soon be everywhere, but the health system will be able to handle it. Tight quarantine gave us the opportunity to get people vaccinated. It was initially difficult due to lack of vaccines and interference from mainland China. The vaccination rate is now above 85%. There are still people who have been resistant due to the global anti-vax movement. This will cause unnecessary deaths, particularly in the elderly. My main criticism of the government was that they have been unnecessarily strict in issuing resident visas. They also could have been clearer about how long people on temporary visas could extend them.
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  > My main criticism of the government was that they have been unnecessarily strict in issuing resident visas. They also could have been clearer about how long people on temporary visas could extend them. They made a booboo :( There was a change to ARC which affected me. My wife and I married in Taiwan. When we move back to Taiwan (From Singapore) september last year, I had difficulty getting my ARC due to Taiwan requiring a Marriage certificate from New Zealand. The issue is, in NZ/AU/UK if you marry in another country that is legally recognized you cannot get married again. So it's not possible to fly to NZ, get married, and get a 2nd marriage cert. After 3 months apparently enough people were affected by this that these countries (and some others) were put on an exemption list. Then I needed my criminal record, which took a while cos NZ>Auckland went into lockdown and a 2 week process took 2 months. :( Got my ARC card 2 weeks ago.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  Taiwan has had a great response, but I do want to correct one thing: > It was initially difficult due to lack of vaccines and interference from mainland China. This was more a political decision from the Taiwanese government that it would not buy the BioNTech vaccine through the licensed distributor, because that distributor is a mainland Chinese company. Taiwan insisted on bypassing the Chinese distributor and buying directly from BioNTech, which would have been a violation of BioNTech's contract with the Chinese company. The reason the Chinese company had the license was that it invested in the development of the BioNTech vaccine very early on. The Taiwanese government then blamed the PRC for supposedly blocking Taiwan from buying the BioNTech vaccine. The real issue was that given its politics, the DPP did not want to be seen to be relying on the mainland for vaccines.
onetokeoverthe 5y ago
[dead]

98 points by skrebbel 5y ago

pretty much the same experience I had arriving in Hong Kong last year. Zero covid is actually (and only) possible if you actually stop it from coming in at the borders. Near 100% chaperoning from airplane to quarantine hotel by hazmat attired public health workers. Unnerving and impressive, at the same time.

DocTomoe 5y ago
It's essentially the same kind of security kabuki that we know from the TSA. Impressive, a nuisance at best, frightening at worst, and perfectly useless.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  It's one of main the reasons that mainland China and Taiwan have orders of magnitude fewer deaths per capita than most places in the world.
  - DocTomoe 5y ago
    And yet, eventually, we will see the bug breaking through, now probably a whole different beast than we saw before, into a completely unprotected population (with - in the PRC - a vaccination we don't consider particularly good). In fact, it already is happening, see how Beijing and Shanghai have outbreaks. I sincerely hope I am wrong here, but it may well be that the zero covid countries will have saved the few and sacrificed the many, three years on, and provided a new reservoir for new, more deadly variants to evolve in.
    - pbazarnik 5y ago
      I'm in Taiwan and was here for a whole pandemic. Article is spot on but this response efficiency, visible now, was acquired over last 2 years of improvements. Taiwan had a luxury of foresight due to earlier experience with SARS, back channel information on virus developments in China thanks to proximity and countless business contacts and a favorable geographical location. Being an island it was very easy to isolate itself from the rest of the world. This may not have been possible for other countries. Zero COVID was a goal when efficiency of vaccines was still believed to be able to prevent transmission. Omicron appearance put an end to that. Taiwan's response was competent but there were several hickups: Taiwan was late to acquire vaccines due to their reliance on border closures. Delta variant sneaked through border controls due to lax airline stuff quarantine rules and some rule breaches (pilot going AWOL). There was cross resident infection in quarantine hotels due airborne transmission (red elevator) There were many overreactions: closed off outdoor parks, beaches and hiking routes despite evidence that outdoor transmission is very unlikely. Overall, solid B+ performance. Regarding more deadly variants: we can hope that evolutionary pressure we put on virus by isolating serious cases will not allow it. I hope Taiwan and rest of the world will learn from this experience so we are ready for a next outbreak (bird flu likely)
      - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
        If Taiwan only gets a B+, most countries must have failing grades.
        pbazarnik 5y ago
        It depends on criteria. For example, USA early vaccination ramp up is second to only United Emirates in the world. Taiwan was late in this particular aspect and quite panicked when some virus broke through quarantine measures (contained by quite heroic contact tracing efforts) https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
        DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
bloodyplonker22 5y ago
"Zero Covid" is only possible until, well, it's not possible. Look at China and their incredibly draconian CCP locking people down in Shanghai in their small apartments for a month (and ongoing). Are they going to do this every single time there is a covid outbreak? It's insanity, but the CCP will probably not want to admit they're wrong.
- alephnan 5y ago
  Look at Japan Covid numbers before and after the Olympics. Japan was practically zero. And that was when Japan vaccination rates were below 10%. The vast majority of cases ( at fractions of what an American city has ) was in Tokyo, and Tokyo has 3-4x NYC’s population and atleast 3x the density , despite Cuomo’s constant “density” argument. Japan never had lockdowns. They just stopped allowing alcohol after 8pm. And also strict enforcement of people into the country. I was one of the last few hundred people into the country before it was entirely closed to non residents in 2021.
- graeme 5y ago
  Note that Shanghai tried to ditch the zero covid policy and avoided taking action for ten days. So the infection grey large then central govt stepped in. Other chinese cities had outbreaks, reacted quickly and got rid of the virus. The Shanghai situation is atrocious but it isn’t representative of China’s policy or typical results.
  - hunglee2 5y ago
    true indeed, Shanghai tried to do it as close to Western style as possible, as the commentator implies is the way. They screwed up, and now have to lockdown.
- hunglee2 5y ago
  it's totally possible, China has indeed proved it over these past two years. Infected people get over Covid in 2-4 weeks, these people have just got to be isolated. There probably is a tipping point where you cannot do it, but as case numbers are currently low, it is worth a shot. Most of China currently is going about it's business, w/ no lockdown

xvector 5y ago

I went to the Netherlands recently and COVID was almost a non-issue. No masks, crowded cities. Their society still seems to be intact, without having to enforce this level of draconian ridiculousness. It was disillusioning. This late in the pandemic, when everyone that wants a vaccine has received one, I really do think we are overreacting. Let's return to life as normal, keeping the positive developments like work from home around.

hnhg 5y ago
It was largely the same situation in Belgium, Germany and the UK while I was there. Masks only seemed to be required while travelling, and even in that case the UK only had requirements for international travel. Vaccines have largely taken the burden off the healthcare systems, particularly ICU, and so the virus can run its course for now.
kmonsen 5y ago
Isn’t it the same all over U.S.? Even here in the Bay Area I only need to wear a mask on public transport. Everything else is optional.
- xvector 5y ago
  In my part of the Bay, everyone is wearing masks everywhere. It's kinda bizarre.
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    I still wear masks when I go to a store for a quick visit. It's entirely optional though and the mix is 50/50. I find this normal.
skrebbel 5y ago
Who are "we" in your comment?
throwaway4good 5y ago
I also went to Netherlands recently; no masks, crowded cities ... And returning to Germany I had to quarantine for 10 days - sick with covid.

netsharc 5y ago

It's odd that they're still insisting on cleaning surfaces, although it's been long concluded by e.g. the CDC (is it a settled science?) that infections from surfaces are very unlikely. But I guess if they're going for zero covid, then any little chance need to be reduced.

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
If you're swamped with cases, only the dominant route of transmission matters. When you're going for zero cases, then all routes of transmission matter. US policy is to tolerate a high level of transmission in the community, so CDC's advice will be very different from advice given by public health authorities in counties that don't tolerate transmission.

skrebbel 5y ago

Meta: HN confuses me to the max, it says I submitted this article 1 hour ago but: - I would swear I had found it on HN in the first place - When I went back to HN to read its comments, I couldn't find it - So I (re?)submitted it All this was a few days ago iirc, not 1 hour :-)

modeless 5y ago
I believe there is a "second chance" queue that mods can put your article in for reposting later.
- skrebbel 5y ago
  Ah right, thanks, that makes sense.
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bloodyplonker22 5y ago

Taiwan needs to consider removing the quarantine now that it looks like omicron is going to run its course there just like in Korea and Japan. One reason they are not removing it is because the government does not want to be seen as being "wrong" about covid policy. Even China's much more draconian lockdowns on Shanghai will probably not work to prevent the spread of omicron in the future. In both cases, it's a huge waste of resources and damaging to the economy and peoples' liberties.

alephnan 5y ago
> it's a huge waste of resources peoples' liberties Are you an actual resident in Asia or a Westerner armchair philosophizing what people in Asia actually want. Here’s a glimpse from actual Asian people, from a democratic country. These people here are being polite and aren’t saying outright, but a sentiment expressed here that’s pretty common is Asian people thinks it’s admirable that Americans have individual liberty, and acknowledge there are pros and cons to that. If you actually understood Asian culture and why these countries have these policies, then you’d know it’s not really a compliment. In Asia, maybe / kind-of means no. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ctmxV-yNhg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ctmxV-yNhg My partner is Taiwanese, and I am American. We moved Japan to during the pandemic because we don’t agree with the West and Americans’ attitude towards coronavirus. There is a lot of overlap between Taiwan and Japan, Taiwan being more “liberal” in some respects and Japan being conservative, but otherwise people from both countries on average prefer personal inconvenience for the collective good, especially given both of these cultures have a respect for the elderly. We prefer what you call “draconian” measures. Let people who are residents in Asia deal with their governments. Who said people want liberty above all else? Freedom requires responsibility, and America hasn’t been for a while. Worry about the host of problems in America, because Asia is doing just fine. People in the tourism industry are incentivized otherwise, but other people in Taiwan / Japan aren’t minding the inconveniences, so why are you? In fact, people are kind of enjoying the domestic venues without tourists, especially given the high propensity of Westerners who refuse to wear mask ( even when they are vaccinated ).
- gagorder100 5y ago

whywhywhywhy 5y ago

Just seems utterly absurd. No one really cares about this stuff anymore in my country. Even the test center down the road fashioned from temporary buildings is sitting empty. Only about 10% are still wearing masks on the train anymore.

Hasnep 5y ago
Not to be rude, but how many people died in the process? There is a reason Taiwan had less than 20 deaths in the first year of the pandemic and still have less than 1000 in a country of 20 million while never having a lockdown. It's only absurd if you don't value people's lives over things like convenience.

AlchemistCamp 5y ago

> Every building and storefront had a QR code posted at the entrance for contact tracing, and people took care to scan it and text the central authority before going inside. Woe unto those who forgot their cell phone! As sensational and exciting as it might feel to write that, it's misleading. If you don't have your cell phone, you just grab a pen and fill out your phone number and the time on one of the cards they have right inside the door. Every place of business that has a QR code to scan also has the paper and pen option. I've filled in quite a few over the past couple of years when going to a convenience store after a workout. Considering it avoided both a mass outbreak and lockdowns, I'd say the system has worked out very well. There was some interesting work on making it maximally privacy-preserving, too!

bloodyplonker22 5y ago
>Considering it avoided both a mass outbreak Have you been following what is going on in Taiwan in terms of covid? There is a mass outbreak building up right now. Oh, and the contact tracing you are talking about -- are they going to start contact tracing the thousands of people who have covid now? How is that going to help?
- AlchemistCamp 5y ago
  > Have you been following what is going on in Taiwan in terms of covid? Yes. It's where I've been from the beginning of the pandemic, all through last year, during the original SARS outbreak in 2002 and most of the years in between. The current wave is more contagious but quite a bit less lethal than the delta outbreak that Taiwan successfully stopped last summer via contact tracing and limited restrictions.
- eloisius 5y ago
  Sounds like you really have an axe to grind all over this thread. I dare venture that you haven't been following the situation here that closely either. I'm in Taipei right now and have lived here for almost the entire pandemic. The "mass outbreak" was 13k new cases today. The cases are ramping up but hospitalizations and deaths are not. Everyone knows that omicron is not serious, and by all indications, the government is cautiously letting it rip this time. Yesterday they ended the QR code program. They've been continuously reducing quarantine for 'close contacts' of confirmed cases. It's down to 3 days at home quarantine, and then 4 days of self health management, during which you aren't supposed to go to the mall or things like that, but can still go to work. They've also reduced the number of contacts that they trace and which criteria qualify as "close contact." For two years while most of the rest of the world was in turmoil, life was almost normal here. I still went to the gym, went to restaurants, worked in an office, positive GDP growth. Things just carried on, and without a massive body count. And now, that's it's basically a cold, the population is mostly vaccinated, and there is no hope of ever maintaining "COVID-zero" the government is slowly easing restrictions without overloading the health system. Taiwan's COVID response should be hailed as genius, yet you still have blowhards that feel like they were right all along.

jwmoz 5y ago

I live in Taiwan. The gov response was the best I've experienced and heard about so far, compared to say the UK which was a shitshow. A year and a half ago now we did something like 10 days in a airbnb quarantine which was a challenge for me as I don't think I've ever stayed that long inside. Deliveries everyday, felt sorry for the staff dropping it at the door all the time but whatever. General life was good, everyone wears masks. QRs on doors and contact tracing. Only one small outbreak due to a Korean pilot that went drinking with some girls iirc. They had news from the CDC everyday. Then the vaccines came and most people got it sorted. Now the gov has opened up more and even dropped the QR code system. Only one annoyance I have is I need a booster shot to train at the gym. A couple of my partner's friends have caught covid and it will start to pass through. Pretty happy with the response compared to somewhere like the UK or currently China and Shanghai.

keyme 5y ago

Cool level of insanity. I've traveled the world this last year, and have certainly experienced all sorts of stupidity, ridiculous bureaucracy and corruption in this regard. Like OP I discovered that I enjoy going through these Kafkaesque mazes, and found it pretty fun. Literally never knowing if I'm passing a border post or having to turn back (spoiler: I never turned back). That said, I didn't go to any of the east Asian countries, because it would have been "too much" (as is clear from this post). In Latin America and Africa, all the "covid policy" was just a clear corruption opportunity being taken advantage of. More things you could "do wrong" is a big boon for every corrupt official. In Africa, border personnel were happy to take a bribe as your "PCR test" (and the one time I actually did a PCR test, they did not accept it, they only wanted the bribe). Police were happy to enforce the mask rules (on white tourists only, in the middle of the night). Businesses were happy to convert to a "PCR testing clinic" by painting the walls white, sticking something in your nose, and giving you a piece of paper for money (even if you wanted a real PCR test, you couldn't know it's real). You see the picture. Thing is, I've learned that the overt corruption in these "developing" countries is just less sophisticated version of what's going on in the rest of the world. So, the next time you encounter bullshit like this, just try to ask yourself why are they doing this? Who gains from this? Etc. It's a fun game, and sometimes you come to interesting realizations.

josephg 5y ago
> Thing is, I've learned that the overt corruption in these "developing" countries is just less sophisticated version of what's going on in the rest of the world. There is plenty of real corruption going on in the rich world. But there's also plenty of examples of good governance and good health advice making it into government policy. Its far too cynical to label all governmental responses to covid as corruption. Maybe thats true in Latin America, but Latin America and Taiwan are very different places. If all countries had corrupt and ineffective covid policies, all countries would have ended up with similar covid mortality figures. But the data[1] shows a vast gap between the best and worst countries re: covid deaths. Plenty of countries made a good showing - and that speaks well for their ability to turn medical advice into action. Taiwan has had 36 deaths per million people, compared to 3048 in the USA. You say their quarantine system is "insanity". If it were up to me, I'd pick Taiwan's "insane" covid policies every time. [1] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

fasthandle 5y ago

Meanwhile in Shanghai https://www.reddit.com/r/shanghai/comments/ucznt8/i_fixed_emma_leanings_shanghai_promotional_video/ https://www.reddit.com/r/shanghai/comments/ucznt8/i_fixed_em...

jake_morrison 5y ago

I have been living in Taiwan through the pandemic. The response has been exemplary. Life has been normal, other than the need to wear masks and scan QR codes when entering shops to enable contact tracing. There has been very little actual risk and fear of infection. We haven't had a lockdown, and until recently, cases were below 10 per day. You can go a long way with good quarantine and testing policies. Now the cat is out of the bag, and Omicron will soon be everywhere, but the health system will be able to handle it. Tight quarantine gave us the opportunity to get people vaccinated. It was initially difficult due to lack of vaccines and interference from mainland China. The vaccination rate is now above 85%. There are still people who have been resistant due to the global anti-vax movement. This will cause unnecessary deaths, particularly in the elderly. My main criticism of the government was that they have been unnecessarily strict in issuing resident visas. They also could have been clearer about how long people on temporary visas could extend them.

philliphaydon 5y ago
> My main criticism of the government was that they have been unnecessarily strict in issuing resident visas. They also could have been clearer about how long people on temporary visas could extend them. They made a booboo :( There was a change to ARC which affected me. My wife and I married in Taiwan. When we move back to Taiwan (From Singapore) september last year, I had difficulty getting my ARC due to Taiwan requiring a Marriage certificate from New Zealand. The issue is, in NZ/AU/UK if you marry in another country that is legally recognized you cannot get married again. So it's not possible to fly to NZ, get married, and get a 2nd marriage cert. After 3 months apparently enough people were affected by this that these countries (and some others) were put on an exemption list. Then I needed my criminal record, which took a while cos NZ>Auckland went into lockdown and a 2 week process took 2 months. :( Got my ARC card 2 weeks ago.
DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
Taiwan has had a great response, but I do want to correct one thing: > It was initially difficult due to lack of vaccines and interference from mainland China. This was more a political decision from the Taiwanese government that it would not buy the BioNTech vaccine through the licensed distributor, because that distributor is a mainland Chinese company. Taiwan insisted on bypassing the Chinese distributor and buying directly from BioNTech, which would have been a violation of BioNTech's contract with the Chinese company. The reason the Chinese company had the license was that it invested in the development of the BioNTech vaccine very early on. The Taiwanese government then blamed the PRC for supposedly blocking Taiwan from buying the BioNTech vaccine. The real issue was that given its politics, the DPP did not want to be seen to be relying on the mainland for vaccines.

onetokeoverthe 5y ago

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