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Wasn't this because of rating spiking? They'd buy tons of these, then after rating went up return them to spike ratings on the charts as a form of marketing. I

Wasn't this because of rating spiking? They'd buy tons of these, then after rating went up return them to spike ratings on the charts as a form of marketing. Is hacker news now the place SEO spammers go to get support?

blondin 4y ago
i have never considered or heard of this. the more you know...
- tempnow987 4y ago
  I think it worked because you could buy a lot of CD's each week on behalf of folks who needed the ratings bump, then when the 30 days were up you could return them. So amazon was covering labor and shipping both ways on large quantities of these - stock, then pick and ship, then dealing with the returns and restock etc. Of course I hope the account would get canceled, but based on other areas these folks seem able to create reasonable numbers of accounts.
  - erichocean 4y ago
    The problem is that no one on Earth buys used music CDs due to the Amazon.com best seller ranks. The whole SEO spammer idea is nonsensical in this case, and I highly doubt Amazon is trying to target SEO spammers buying thousands of copies of used Audio CDs. I'm like 99.9% certain it's a mistake. USB chargers? HDMI cables? Sure, I'd buy your SEO spammer theory that people are messing with the product rankings somehow. But not used music CDs. You search Amazon for the used CD you already know you want, pray they have even one copy, then buy it. I don't think in 20+ years of buying CDs online, I've ever looked at a best seller rank. But the real problem with your theory is that there aren't many copies of these things! Certainly not "thousands" as you implied. There's like…two (if you're lucky, a lot of times Amazon doesn't have any 3rd party sellers and you have to check eBay or whatever). I don't see how buying two used CDs, then returning them 30 days later to a 3rd party seller, helps anything with the best seller ranking.
    - tempnow987 4y ago
      Sorry, if this was just used / out of production CD's then I'm probably wrong. However, this IS an issue in everything from book lists (which predate Amazon actually and happen outside of amazon with bulk book buys) to I thought regular music "sales" which have become easier to manipulate because total unit sales are low (given streaming etc etc).
ars 4y ago
But why is it 4 cd's in total, rather than 4 of one kind?
- erichocean 4y ago
  Well, honestly, most used Audio CDs don't even have four copies to buy. I'm happy if there's one. The SEO spammer idea sounds good for other products (e.g. USB chargers, HDMI cables, etc.) but used Audio CDs ain't one of them. You can't even pull of the scam because there isn't enough product to do it.
notreallyserio 4y ago
Maybe that's the reason, but it happens if you try to buy any five CDs -- including used CDs. I just verified it by adding five different CDs by five different artists to my cart and then clicking "proceed to checkout".
aaron695 4y ago
> Wasn't this because of rating spiking? No. It's obviously a bug. Perhaps related to ratings (There's also chart spiking which is uniquely CDs, which would also have high Amazon returns) . A 40 limit accidently got set to 4 perhaps on Friday. I can't see a customer returning 100% of their CD's lasting long so perhaps it's a limit normally on new customers. Often the same CD has limits around 4. Or maybe the bug is related to a different limiting mechanism. An engineer set a limit to all CDs not just the one that's in demand perhaps, which they do set for limited stock. > Is hacker news now the place SEO spammers go to get support? Why not?
nowherebeen 4y ago
How could 1 person buying cds do that? You can only leave 1 review per purchase. That only works if multiple people buy the same cd and even then, it would not hit the limit.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  You have a "best sellers" category, so I assume they're targetting that(?) https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/bestsellers/music https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/bestsellers/music
  - erichocean 4y ago
    Literally no one on Earth cares about the current value of the best seller rank of a used CD for some random 80s band. The whole SEO spammer idea for used music CDs doesn't pass the smell test. There's only a few copies available to buy for most used CDs anyway (if you're lucky), so there's no way to pull off the scam.
Beltalowda 4y ago
> Is hacker news now the place SEO spammers go to get support? I doubt the OP is a SEO spammer. Buying 4 different CDs in a week is a normal operation for a music aficionado. Back when I regularly bought CDs I would buy maybe 10 or 15 new albums in one go (and then nothing for a while). I think it's a perfectly reasonable and legitimate thing to do. I understand Amazon's predicament with SEO spammers, but essentially it's a somewhat user-hostile "fix" for their broken rating system. I don't understand why they don't limit the amount of returns, which also makes this type of spam harder. Or maybe rethink the entire "crowd-sourced rating" thing as it keeps being problematic in various ways. Either way, there are many things you can do better than "fuck you legitimate customer".
- swarnie 4y ago
  I dont think i know anyone who's bought a cd in the last 15 years, four per week should last most people a life time.
  - ARandomerDude 4y ago
    But you can buy more than one pair of Wolverine meat shredder claws despite the fact that you only have two hands. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N5U14FA https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N5U14FA
    - swarnie 4y ago
      - jraph 4y ago
        And then allows you to lose access to your entire collection of Wolverine meat shredders the day you cancel your subscription (or the service goes out of business). Or silently and suddenly lose access to some of them because of some contract issue between the right holder of these shredders and the service provider. Or prevents you from using your shredders if you lose your internet connection. > on any device I still have a table that won't accept DRM-encumbered Wolverine meat shredders and I would rather not put anything DRM-encumbered on those which could anyway. I also have some tables that are not so widespread but accept standard stuff, but the services won't use the standards. That's why I go out of my way avoiding any subscription-based Wolverine meat shredder providers.
erichocean 4y ago
> Wasn't this because of rating spiking? Interesting idea, but who the hell buys a used Audio CD due to its Amazon bestseller rank? I sure don't. I can maybe see SEO spamming (or whatever) for something like USB chargers or HDMI cables or something. A commodity item that people simply want cheap products with good ratings, and otherwise don't care. But not music. Literally no one buys old used Audio CDs because of the Amazon best seller rank. It's not even on the list of considerations.
mxmilkiib 4y ago
Why doesn't Amazon just remove ratings from users that return the items rated if they are good ratings? I'd highly suspect support folk are saying it's an error because they have no idea what is happening so that counts as an 'error', and "it will get fixed" is a guess/hopeful assumption to fob the user off.
- erichocean 4y ago
  I though that about support too, that's why I posted here. I'm certain it is unintended, but who knows if anyone in a position to fix it at Amazon is even aware of the issue. The front page of HN is a great way to give it some visibility…
- t0mas88 4y ago
  It's not about Amazon ratings (stars) on the site, it's about album sales numbers for the "top 100" kind of lists. So they can't really take that back after an album has been top seller in a certain week.
- tempnow987 4y ago
  People review bomb competitors, so you buy a product from a competitor and rate it a zero, say it burst into fire etc (was popular when battery fires were in the news). The popularity spiking is to get folks higher up on charts etc. Away from the top few it's pretty easy to get up (for a few days).
bryanrasmussen 4y ago
Looking through the poster's profile https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=erichocean https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=erichocean wow, he sure put in the work to let his SEO spam get through! but you caught them anyway, good job! imagine, all those years, since 2011 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=erichocean https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=erichocean just to be caught out in the end! that's just heartbreaking.
sophacles 4y ago
Someone wanting to buy more than 4 CDs is enough for you to call them an SEO spammer? If I want to buy a 6 disc boxed set, does that qualify me as an SEO spammer too? wtf is wrong with you?

blondin 4y ago

i have never considered or heard of this. the more you know...

tempnow987 4y ago
I think it worked because you could buy a lot of CD's each week on behalf of folks who needed the ratings bump, then when the 30 days were up you could return them. So amazon was covering labor and shipping both ways on large quantities of these - stock, then pick and ship, then dealing with the returns and restock etc. Of course I hope the account would get canceled, but based on other areas these folks seem able to create reasonable numbers of accounts.
- erichocean 4y ago
  The problem is that no one on Earth buys used music CDs due to the Amazon.com best seller ranks. The whole SEO spammer idea is nonsensical in this case, and I highly doubt Amazon is trying to target SEO spammers buying thousands of copies of used Audio CDs. I'm like 99.9% certain it's a mistake. USB chargers? HDMI cables? Sure, I'd buy your SEO spammer theory that people are messing with the product rankings somehow. But not used music CDs. You search Amazon for the used CD you already know you want, pray they have even one copy, then buy it. I don't think in 20+ years of buying CDs online, I've ever looked at a best seller rank. But the real problem with your theory is that there aren't many copies of these things! Certainly not "thousands" as you implied. There's like…two (if you're lucky, a lot of times Amazon doesn't have any 3rd party sellers and you have to check eBay or whatever). I don't see how buying two used CDs, then returning them 30 days later to a 3rd party seller, helps anything with the best seller ranking.
  - tempnow987 4y ago
    Sorry, if this was just used / out of production CD's then I'm probably wrong. However, this IS an issue in everything from book lists (which predate Amazon actually and happen outside of amazon with bulk book buys) to I thought regular music "sales" which have become easier to manipulate because total unit sales are low (given streaming etc etc).

ars 4y ago

But why is it 4 cd's in total, rather than 4 of one kind?

erichocean 4y ago
Well, honestly, most used Audio CDs don't even have four copies to buy. I'm happy if there's one. The SEO spammer idea sounds good for other products (e.g. USB chargers, HDMI cables, etc.) but used Audio CDs ain't one of them. You can't even pull of the scam because there isn't enough product to do it.

notreallyserio 4y ago

Maybe that's the reason, but it happens if you try to buy any five CDs -- including used CDs. I just verified it by adding five different CDs by five different artists to my cart and then clicking "proceed to checkout".

aaron695 4y ago

> Wasn't this because of rating spiking? No. It's obviously a bug. Perhaps related to ratings (There's also chart spiking which is uniquely CDs, which would also have high Amazon returns) . A 40 limit accidently got set to 4 perhaps on Friday. I can't see a customer returning 100% of their CD's lasting long so perhaps it's a limit normally on new customers. Often the same CD has limits around 4. Or maybe the bug is related to a different limiting mechanism. An engineer set a limit to all CDs not just the one that's in demand perhaps, which they do set for limited stock. > Is hacker news now the place SEO spammers go to get support? Why not?

nowherebeen 4y ago

How could 1 person buying cds do that? You can only leave 1 review per purchase. That only works if multiple people buy the same cd and even then, it would not hit the limit.

Beltalowda 4y ago
You have a "best sellers" category, so I assume they're targetting that(?) https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/bestsellers/music https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/bestsellers/music
- erichocean 4y ago
  Literally no one on Earth cares about the current value of the best seller rank of a used CD for some random 80s band. The whole SEO spammer idea for used music CDs doesn't pass the smell test. There's only a few copies available to buy for most used CDs anyway (if you're lucky), so there's no way to pull off the scam.

Beltalowda 4y ago

> Is hacker news now the place SEO spammers go to get support? I doubt the OP is a SEO spammer. Buying 4 different CDs in a week is a normal operation for a music aficionado. Back when I regularly bought CDs I would buy maybe 10 or 15 new albums in one go (and then nothing for a while). I think it's a perfectly reasonable and legitimate thing to do. I understand Amazon's predicament with SEO spammers, but essentially it's a somewhat user-hostile "fix" for their broken rating system. I don't understand why they don't limit the amount of returns, which also makes this type of spam harder. Or maybe rethink the entire "crowd-sourced rating" thing as it keeps being problematic in various ways. Either way, there are many things you can do better than "fuck you legitimate customer".

swarnie 4y ago
I dont think i know anyone who's bought a cd in the last 15 years, four per week should last most people a life time.
- ARandomerDude 4y ago
  But you can buy more than one pair of Wolverine meat shredder claws despite the fact that you only have two hands. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N5U14FA https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N5U14FA
  - swarnie 4y ago
    - jraph 4y ago
      And then allows you to lose access to your entire collection of Wolverine meat shredders the day you cancel your subscription (or the service goes out of business). Or silently and suddenly lose access to some of them because of some contract issue between the right holder of these shredders and the service provider. Or prevents you from using your shredders if you lose your internet connection. > on any device I still have a table that won't accept DRM-encumbered Wolverine meat shredders and I would rather not put anything DRM-encumbered on those which could anyway. I also have some tables that are not so widespread but accept standard stuff, but the services won't use the standards. That's why I go out of my way avoiding any subscription-based Wolverine meat shredder providers.

erichocean 4y ago

> Wasn't this because of rating spiking? Interesting idea, but who the hell buys a used Audio CD due to its Amazon bestseller rank? I sure don't. I can maybe see SEO spamming (or whatever) for something like USB chargers or HDMI cables or something. A commodity item that people simply want cheap products with good ratings, and otherwise don't care. But not music. Literally no one buys old used Audio CDs because of the Amazon best seller rank. It's not even on the list of considerations.

mxmilkiib 4y ago

Why doesn't Amazon just remove ratings from users that return the items rated if they are good ratings? I'd highly suspect support folk are saying it's an error because they have no idea what is happening so that counts as an 'error', and "it will get fixed" is a guess/hopeful assumption to fob the user off.

erichocean 4y ago
I though that about support too, that's why I posted here. I'm certain it is unintended, but who knows if anyone in a position to fix it at Amazon is even aware of the issue. The front page of HN is a great way to give it some visibility…
t0mas88 4y ago
It's not about Amazon ratings (stars) on the site, it's about album sales numbers for the "top 100" kind of lists. So they can't really take that back after an album has been top seller in a certain week.
tempnow987 4y ago
People review bomb competitors, so you buy a product from a competitor and rate it a zero, say it burst into fire etc (was popular when battery fires were in the news). The popularity spiking is to get folks higher up on charts etc. Away from the top few it's pretty easy to get up (for a few days).

bryanrasmussen 4y ago

Looking through the poster's profile https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=erichocean https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=erichocean wow, he sure put in the work to let his SEO spam get through! but you caught them anyway, good job! imagine, all those years, since 2011 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=erichocean https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=erichocean just to be caught out in the end! that's just heartbreaking.

sophacles 4y ago

Someone wanting to buy more than 4 CDs is enough for you to call them an SEO spammer? If I want to buy a 6 disc boxed set, does that qualify me as an SEO spammer too? wtf is wrong with you?