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> Why is lithium such a bogeyman when iron ore production is 1000s of times larger? Because the people making the argument aren't being genuine. They don't car
by KennyBlanken 5y ago
> Why is lithium such a bogeyman when iron ore production is 1000s of times larger?
Because the people making the argument aren't being genuine. They don't care. They want a "gotcha" and to feel like they "owned" the "libtard" driving the "eco-warrior-mobile."
When the Toyota Prius came out two decades ago, people boo-hooed about the environmental impact of the battery - either the carbon impact or the environmental impacts of the mining.
You could show them the numbers, tell them that the packs are highly recyclable and thus we're only pulling the ore out of the earth once and then get to re-use it numerous times...versus fossil fuels where they're useful once. Point to the huge gas and emissions reduction over the life of the vehicle. They don't care. Your facts get dismissed as Fake News.
Same with solar panels. Doomsayers were predicting landfills full of panels and boo-hooing about the environmental cost. Part of the problem there is that people think "lifetime of 20 years" means "20 years and then phbbbtttt, dead" but reality is "20 years and now only 80% capacity." As solar gets more common, there will be more infrastructure
It's also fascinating that "set up an entirely new distribution infrastructure around hydrogen" or "create nuclear-waste-recycling reactors" isn't a problem, but apparently "a used market for solar panels will crop up all on its own" is inconceivable.
The same people would likely be stunned, stunned I tell you, that there are many shops out there rebuilding Prius battery packs and all manner of EV battery packs are valuable on the used market.
- mbg721 5y agoThere were skeptical people who got burned hard by being forced into using squiggly light bulbs that were supposed to last forever and that you can't throw away because they're full of mercury. Now, I have a box of burnt-out ones that I'm saving for a disposal day, and I've had two repairmen from separate companies bash their heads into an overhead one at the bottom of my basement stairs, shattering it. Pile that on top of various experiences with phone and laptop batteries...is it "different this time", or were the previous promises just lies?
- seoaeu 5y agoWho ever claimed that CFL light bulbs were going to last forever? I've never seen any marketing for any light bulb that said they would never burn out
- _ph_ 5y agoI used CFL light bulbs for like 2 decades and they were extremely long-lasting. I got rid of the last one some months ago, it wasn't dead yet but got a bit weak. I had installed it like 15 years ago.
- oldsecondhand 5y agoWhen CFLs were new, I had cheap CFLs that wouldn't last even half as much as an incandescent bulb while still costing 4-5 times as much.
- _ph_ 5y agoI never had this experience. My first CFL lasted at least 10 years of daily usage as my desk lamp - I think I got rid of it not because it was broken but truly outdated. It is possible that the quality of the grid plays a role as voltage fluctuations might reduce their life time.
- marssaxman 5y agoIf I remember correctly, there was also an issue with the orientation of the ballast - some CFLs expected heat to rise in a certain direction, and if you installed them upside down (in a ceiling fixture, for example), they would overheat and die. I remember being very disappointed with CFLs and abandoning them quickly.
- Johnythree 5y agoDepends which ones you bought. I had Philips CFL's which lasted forever, but cheapies which would die in a few months.
- ClumsyPilot 5y agoYeah but how is it different from people that got burnt by any random new tech they bought without understanding it, like a smart dishwasher that bricked itself because of a failed update, or folks huying bitcoin at the peak
- mbg721 5y agoThose people's old tech didn't get outlawed at the same time.
- renewiltord 5y agoA lot of these “well actually” people seem to be driven by “you think you’re better than me?”
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- mschuster91 5y ago> You could show them the numbers, tell them that the packs are highly recyclable and thus we're only pulling the ore out of the earth once and then get to re-use it numerous times...versus fossil fuels where they're useful once. Unfortunately, at the moment only 5% of lithium batteries are recycled (=their materials used to make new batteries) at all, given that unlike for normal alkaline or lead-acid batteries it's extremely hard to do (as lithium is highly reactive) and there hasn't been much "source material" available so the usual economies of scale could not kick in yet. (ETA: Batteries are still way better than fossil fuels as they can be recharged hundreds to thousands of times!) In any case, the idea of a"secondary use" market of lithium-based batteries is ... questionable to me. Lithium batteries are already enough of a fire risk when they are brand new - I would never dare to put a battery that has been under enormous physical and chemical stress from automotive usage into my home, no matter how much of its original capacity it still holds. [1] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220105-lithium-batteries-big-unanswered-question https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220105-lithium-batterie...
- DennisP 5y agoAlso the epoxies and whatnot can make batteries hard to recycle. At Tesla's Battery Day they talked about that and said they're designing the 4680s to be easily recyclable by their own recycling centers, which are a lot simpler when they only have to deal with one kind of battery.
- upofadown 5y agoWait, has hydrogen become some sort of partisan thing in the US's us vs them politics?
- adrianN 5y agoIt has to some extend in Germany so it is safe to assume that it's much worse in the US.