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Russia seems less like a state and more like a mafia. “Nice wind farm you got there. Would be a shame if something were to happen to it. Maybe you better buy so

Russia seems less like a state and more like a mafia. “Nice wind farm you got there. Would be a shame if something were to happen to it. Maybe you better buy some more oil.”

01100011 4y ago
The West is effectively at war with Russia. I wouldn't be surprised if the US was actually the one behind the recent explosions and fires inside Russia and not Ukranian agents/military. When you're at war, cyber-warfare is to be expected(and hopefully prepared for).
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > West is effectively at war with Russia In a contest. Not at war. Decades of fighting guerrillas has left us loose with words. Tanks rolling past Kyiv should remind us of the bright line between annoying and engaging an enemy.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Indeed - you'd know if we were at war with Russia because things would go incredibly well for America for a few days then incredibly poorly for everyone. America is best described as a belligerent in a proxy war. [1] [A proxy war relationship] usually takes the form of funding, military training, arms, or other forms of material assistance which assist a belligerent party in sustaining its war effort. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  It's called a proxy war.
  - boringg 4y ago
    Has been forever in proxy wars with Russia. Proximity to Europe is the large difference in this one. OP is unfamiliar with the different gradients of war which I think is why everyone is jumping on them for since the US isn't "effectively at war" with Russia.
- brimble 4y ago
  Yeah—when you're shipping weapons for free to one side in a war, plus providing a ton of intel to them from military assets you're operating expressly because of the war, also for free, you're a legitimate target, especially anything related to industrial production (so, including your energy infrastructure). Just because Russia's not decided to shoot at us over it (not because they're nice, but because it would surely make their situation even worse) doesn't mean we're not, effectively, war participants. I'm not complaining about that, mind, but it's not like it's surprising or unfair that they'd try to hit us in limited ways, if they can. Day one of the invasion I double checked our backups (ahead of schedule) and security. And the company I'm with isn't at all involved with anything military, nor do we have any particular interest (business-wise) in Ukraine—some kind of mass automated attack still seemed likely enough to be worth a little of my time. I assume CISOs with infrastructure and military orgs were on a war footing before the shooting started. At least, I hope they were.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > when you're shipping weapons for free to one side in a war, plus providing a ton of intel to them from military assets you're operating expressly because of the war, also for free, you're a legitimate target, especially anything related to industrial production (so, including your energy infrastructure) Proportionality. Weapons are being shipped to Ukraine for use on Ukrainian territory. Not Russia. I don't know if explicit red lines have been drawn. But the Moskva was sunk by Ukranian missiles [1]. And I believe the cross-border raids were done with Mi-8s, not the Mi-17s Kyiv’s been provided by the West [2]. If Russia wants to open its territory to retaliation, that's its choice. But it would be one more blunder in a series of idiot moves. (To be clear, this story looks like Russian criminals being Russian criminals more than anything state directed. If we didn't have the backdrop of the war, the headline would probably mention Bitcoin.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-360_Neptune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-360_Neptune [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/04/20/us-arms-ukraine-mi-17-helicopters/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/04/20/...
  - _djo_ 4y ago
    None of that makes the US (or any other Ukrainian supplier) a legitimate target in terms of international law. Especially as they're nearly all defensive systems being used inside Ukrainian territory. We've established this precedent over decades in earlier proxy wars like Vietnam and Afghanistan where the US and USSR armed each others opponents. It certainly doesn't make the supplier an 'effective war participant' as you stated. This was even true when the US and USSR sent actual personnel in as 'advisors' or combat pilots, even though that is direct involvement. It's not a casus belli.
- pkaye 4y ago
  Maybe a disgruntled former worker in Russia.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
On the other hand, basic infrastructure being so unprotected, that a random guy from a random country, possibly even half a planet away, can stop electricity production, is kinda sad. Yes yes, russia, current year, politics, government actors,... but again... why is it connected to the internet in the first place?
- boringg 4y ago
  Um renewable assets don't run on an information island. Weather forecasting is part of the equation as well as being able to keep up to date diagnostics for operations. "why is it connected to the internet in the first place?" Really? I'll give you points on security concerns but your other comment is borderline ridiculous.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    If the weather forecasting for the windmills is as inaccurate as my daily local forecast, then I could see the systems just shutting down from inaccurate information! Seems like a centralized system looking at forecasts to predict energy needs that could then privately connect to the remote generating stations would be better than having them be internet connected.
    - boringg 4y ago
      Also, wind mills are for milling grains using wind power. And weather forecasting has many different levels of quality to it. I can't speak to your local capabilities but there different services that you can ascribe to. In terms of internet needs - there are many reasons that renewable assets need internet connectivity not strictly forecasting and it isn't unreasonable to be able to get secure connections.
- chmod775 4y ago
  > a random guy from a random country, possibly even half a planet away, can stop electricity production Did they though? From what I read they only lost remote control and the wind turbines continued to operate in "auto mode". Given stormy conditions you maybe could break some wind turbines remotely by somehow disabling their brakes/turning them into the wind, but if you only brick some electronics on a normal day, that's an easy fix. They're not complicated technology and replacement electronics/expertise are readily available.

Russia seems less like a state and more like a mafia. “Nice wind farm you got there. Would be a shame if something were to happen to it. Maybe you better buy some more oil.”

01100011 4y ago

The West is effectively at war with Russia. I wouldn't be surprised if the US was actually the one behind the recent explosions and fires inside Russia and not Ukranian agents/military. When you're at war, cyber-warfare is to be expected(and hopefully prepared for).

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> West is effectively at war with Russia In a contest. Not at war. Decades of fighting guerrillas has left us loose with words. Tanks rolling past Kyiv should remind us of the bright line between annoying and engaging an enemy.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  Indeed - you'd know if we were at war with Russia because things would go incredibly well for America for a few days then incredibly poorly for everyone. America is best described as a belligerent in a proxy war. [1] [A proxy war relationship] usually takes the form of funding, military training, arms, or other forms of material assistance which assist a belligerent party in sustaining its war effort. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war
bcrosby95 4y ago
It's called a proxy war.
- boringg 4y ago
  Has been forever in proxy wars with Russia. Proximity to Europe is the large difference in this one. OP is unfamiliar with the different gradients of war which I think is why everyone is jumping on them for since the US isn't "effectively at war" with Russia.
brimble 4y ago
Yeah—when you're shipping weapons for free to one side in a war, plus providing a ton of intel to them from military assets you're operating expressly because of the war, also for free, you're a legitimate target, especially anything related to industrial production (so, including your energy infrastructure). Just because Russia's not decided to shoot at us over it (not because they're nice, but because it would surely make their situation even worse) doesn't mean we're not, effectively, war participants. I'm not complaining about that, mind, but it's not like it's surprising or unfair that they'd try to hit us in limited ways, if they can. Day one of the invasion I double checked our backups (ahead of schedule) and security. And the company I'm with isn't at all involved with anything military, nor do we have any particular interest (business-wise) in Ukraine—some kind of mass automated attack still seemed likely enough to be worth a little of my time. I assume CISOs with infrastructure and military orgs were on a war footing before the shooting started. At least, I hope they were.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > when you're shipping weapons for free to one side in a war, plus providing a ton of intel to them from military assets you're operating expressly because of the war, also for free, you're a legitimate target, especially anything related to industrial production (so, including your energy infrastructure) Proportionality. Weapons are being shipped to Ukraine for use on Ukrainian territory. Not Russia. I don't know if explicit red lines have been drawn. But the Moskva was sunk by Ukranian missiles [1]. And I believe the cross-border raids were done with Mi-8s, not the Mi-17s Kyiv’s been provided by the West [2]. If Russia wants to open its territory to retaliation, that's its choice. But it would be one more blunder in a series of idiot moves. (To be clear, this story looks like Russian criminals being Russian criminals more than anything state directed. If we didn't have the backdrop of the war, the headline would probably mention Bitcoin.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-360_Neptune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-360_Neptune [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/04/20/us-arms-ukraine-mi-17-helicopters/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/04/20/...
- _djo_ 4y ago
  None of that makes the US (or any other Ukrainian supplier) a legitimate target in terms of international law. Especially as they're nearly all defensive systems being used inside Ukrainian territory. We've established this precedent over decades in earlier proxy wars like Vietnam and Afghanistan where the US and USSR armed each others opponents. It certainly doesn't make the supplier an 'effective war participant' as you stated. This was even true when the US and USSR sent actual personnel in as 'advisors' or combat pilots, even though that is direct involvement. It's not a casus belli.
pkaye 4y ago
Maybe a disgruntled former worker in Russia.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

On the other hand, basic infrastructure being so unprotected, that a random guy from a random country, possibly even half a planet away, can stop electricity production, is kinda sad. Yes yes, russia, current year, politics, government actors,... but again... why is it connected to the internet in the first place?

boringg 4y ago
Um renewable assets don't run on an information island. Weather forecasting is part of the equation as well as being able to keep up to date diagnostics for operations. "why is it connected to the internet in the first place?" Really? I'll give you points on security concerns but your other comment is borderline ridiculous.
- dylan604 4y ago
  If the weather forecasting for the windmills is as inaccurate as my daily local forecast, then I could see the systems just shutting down from inaccurate information! Seems like a centralized system looking at forecasts to predict energy needs that could then privately connect to the remote generating stations would be better than having them be internet connected.
  - boringg 4y ago
    Also, wind mills are for milling grains using wind power. And weather forecasting has many different levels of quality to it. I can't speak to your local capabilities but there different services that you can ascribe to. In terms of internet needs - there are many reasons that renewable assets need internet connectivity not strictly forecasting and it isn't unreasonable to be able to get secure connections.
chmod775 4y ago
> a random guy from a random country, possibly even half a planet away, can stop electricity production Did they though? From what I read they only lost remote control and the wind turbines continued to operate in "auto mode". Given stormy conditions you maybe could break some wind turbines remotely by somehow disabling their brakes/turning them into the wind, but if you only brick some electronics on a normal day, that's an easy fix. They're not complicated technology and replacement electronics/expertise are readily available.