8 ms·

Setting aside all the dynamic stuff that you can't statically check, what does Ruby offer fhat makes it so "pleasant" to use? I'm trying to understand what a s

Setting aside all the dynamic stuff that you can't statically check, what does Ruby offer fhat makes it so "pleasant" to use? I'm trying to understand what a statically typed Ruby could bring to the table.

andrewzah 4y ago
There essentially already is a statically typed ruby: Crystal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_(programming_language)
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Crystal has a look-alike syntax to Ruby. But the semantics (the important bit) aren't even remotely the same.
  - andrewzah 4y ago
    What semantics is crystal lacking? Obviously it's not a 1:1 replacement as the ecosystem is different, gem management (shards) is different, etc. Crystal also has union types and concurrency. For people who want a syntax like ruby + performance/concurrency, but are willing to deal with a different ecosystem and having to do more stuff by hand, Crystal is a nice choice.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      Local variables, method calls, basics like that are basically entirely different. Take the Ruby specification test suite and try to run it on Crystal, even with adding typing and other minor changes, and see how far you get. (Ruby also has full concurrency, by the way.)
      - andrewzah 4y ago
        Crystal has local variables. I didn't mean to imply that ruby & crystal are 1:1 drop-in replacements, but there are a great many similarities. Enough for me as a ruby/rails dev to start on crystal projects with relatively little issue once I learned a bit about the standard library and the ecosystem. Ruby's way of handling types is abhorrent compared to Crystal, though. Sorbet/RBS are unfortunate systems tacked on after people realized that type systems are actually really good and not really that verbose.
      - sethrin 4y ago
        Your criticism does not seem rigorously considered. Toy programs can often simply be renamed from .rb to .cr and be compiled and run as Crystal code. Crystal is not, however, trying to be a drop-in replacement: among other things, an enforced type system is not a minor change. Compilation is not a minor change to a language either. It's valid to say that you don't like the tradeoffs (and of course ideally you would have a full understanding of what those are), but it's incorrect to suggest that these languages are not extremely similar.
        chrisseaton 4y ago
        My argument is - if you swapped out the syntax of Crystal to not look like Ruby, would anyone think 'this is like Ruby'. I don't think so. Super fundamental parts of the language semantics, like method dispatch rules, are completely different between Ruby and Crystal. > Your criticism does not seem rigorously considered. I'm a major contributor to the Ruby specifcation, and I've got a decade of full-time experience in writing about and implementing Ruby and its semantics, so I'm not just doing a drive-by comment.
        bb88 4y ago
        Not sure why you're being downvoted there. But you've made a good point.
        sethrin 4y ago
        Suffice it to say that I don't think the details of message passing are what most people care about with Ruby. I can see how your experience would lead you to believe otherwise.
        eropple 4y ago
        I strongly disagree. The message passing semantics are a pretty core part of why you can write pretty complex metaprogramming in Ruby and, without writing a lot of code, make a lot of stuff happen. And even somebody who "doesn't care" about that is critically indebted to it--because that's how Rails happens. This is not always for the best, of course, but I reach for Ruby pretty consistently when I need to do that sort of thing--often in a dynamic programming context or where I'm binding a lot of state to present a straightforward DSL to an end user (which Sorbet helps with quite a lot, too). Sometimes, for practical reasons, I'll do that sort of work in TypeScript, but the result usually has a lot more sandpaper to it. Crystal...just isn't that. At all. It's a fine language for what it is; it doesn't just offer anything that Ruby, TypeScript, Kotlin, and Rust don't, so I have no use for it. But it's definitely not Ruby and it doesn't even smell like Ruby.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Crystal also has union types and concurrency. Ruby has had concurrency forever, and as of 3.x also parallelism via Ractors.
      - metadat 4y ago
        You may be missing the point - Vanilla Ruby is relatively slow and expensive to scale. That's why I use node.js *grin* /s
  - munificent 4y ago
    I don't know if it's fair to just declare that semantics are the important bit. I suspect that for many users, much of what they like about Ruby is the syntax and core library, and to the degree that Crystal follows that, it will provide much of the same delight that Ruby does.
thr0wawayf00 4y ago
The block syntax is a wonderful way to build and chain flexible iterative logic, the object model is fairly straightforward and the standard library strikes a good balance between functionality and brevity. Once you start to pick up on ruby idioms, the language is pretty fun to use IMO.
weatherlight 4y ago
- takes its object-oriented cues from Smalltalk and not Java/C++/(other class oriented OO langs). - Block notation allows for easy composability of logic. - very easy to make DSLs. - takes a lot of hints from Functional dynamic langs like Lisp.
RangerScience 4y ago
In a broad and abstract sense (and IMHO), Ruby has a substantial core and community-wide commitment of aiming for that pleasantness, and a track record of achieving it. I usually compare/contrast to Python's 10 Principles / Zen of Python, which are rather explicitly about the code itself; instead, Ruby has "developer happiness" and "ruby is nice so we are nice". These show up in many, many small ways throughout both the code ecosystem and within the human community (rubyconf!). There are ofc concrete things to point to, but other comments have already done so, and this bit is a personal fav :)
Buttons840 4y ago
For a lot of people it's the syntax that makes Ruby pleasant. As evidence of this, I refer to other comments claiming languages like Crystal or Elixir are alternative (or better?) versions of Ruby, even though the only thing they have in common is their syntax.
nevinera 4y ago
Initially? Not a whole lot. The point though, is that you used ruby/rails to rapidly build a startup, and then you have a successful business that is _stuck with a massive ruby/rails monolith_. This is where you start extracting services, or refactoring around engines, or some other strategy - doing that involves a huge amount of careful refactoring, and Sorbet can really help.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
An incredibly rich standard library. The built in classes and modulrs have so much functionality built in. They compose very nicely.
jbverschoor 4y ago
Very good standard libraries and heavy use of lambdas
petercooper 4y ago
what does Ruby offer fhat makes it so "pleasant" to use? For me, it fits my mental model of approaching problems quite well. I tend to write a lot of smaller programs for small tasks and when it comes to general chucking data around, Ruby isn't fast, but I can go from problem to solution with as little extraneous nonsense as possible. Python is also quite good at this, but I find it a bit less consistent and tend to question my approach far more unless there's a library that already does the thing I want to do (more often the case with Python, though, to be fair). Python and Ruby have similar conciseness:readability ratios for me, but Ruby has the added benefits of slightly better writability into the mix.
lkrubner 4y ago
That's a very good question. I think in the old days people would have said "Ruby offers the most flexible meta-programming available in a popular script language." Back around 2005 there was a major flamewar between Lisp advocates and Ruby advocates: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12470715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12470715 But nowadays, when I want beautiful meta-programming, I use Clojure. I think Ruby survives now because of Rails. And Rails is a major technology, so that is a valid reason for Ruby to survive. But it is good to be clear where the advantage is coming from: the framework and not the language. Ruby has fallen behind, if you want great meta programming, you can get all the joy, plus much better speed, by using something like Clojure. That also gives you access to the vast ecosystem of Java libraries. But Rails is a different story. For jumpstarting a greenfield API or CRUD app, there is nothing quite as good as Rails. Django and Symfony and other frameworks have tried to imitate Rails, but Rails is still way out in front, with better tools, and the marriage of Rails tools with Ruby's advanced meta-programming is something difficult to replicate elsewhere. If your company needs a custom CRM or CMS, Rails remains the best starting place.

andrewzah 4y ago

There essentially already is a statically typed ruby: Crystal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_(programming_language)

chrisseaton 4y ago
Crystal has a look-alike syntax to Ruby. But the semantics (the important bit) aren't even remotely the same.
- andrewzah 4y ago
  What semantics is crystal lacking? Obviously it's not a 1:1 replacement as the ecosystem is different, gem management (shards) is different, etc. Crystal also has union types and concurrency. For people who want a syntax like ruby + performance/concurrency, but are willing to deal with a different ecosystem and having to do more stuff by hand, Crystal is a nice choice.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Local variables, method calls, basics like that are basically entirely different. Take the Ruby specification test suite and try to run it on Crystal, even with adding typing and other minor changes, and see how far you get. (Ruby also has full concurrency, by the way.)
    - andrewzah 4y ago
      Crystal has local variables. I didn't mean to imply that ruby & crystal are 1:1 drop-in replacements, but there are a great many similarities. Enough for me as a ruby/rails dev to start on crystal projects with relatively little issue once I learned a bit about the standard library and the ecosystem. Ruby's way of handling types is abhorrent compared to Crystal, though. Sorbet/RBS are unfortunate systems tacked on after people realized that type systems are actually really good and not really that verbose.
    - sethrin 4y ago
      Your criticism does not seem rigorously considered. Toy programs can often simply be renamed from .rb to .cr and be compiled and run as Crystal code. Crystal is not, however, trying to be a drop-in replacement: among other things, an enforced type system is not a minor change. Compilation is not a minor change to a language either. It's valid to say that you don't like the tradeoffs (and of course ideally you would have a full understanding of what those are), but it's incorrect to suggest that these languages are not extremely similar.
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        My argument is - if you swapped out the syntax of Crystal to not look like Ruby, would anyone think 'this is like Ruby'. I don't think so. Super fundamental parts of the language semantics, like method dispatch rules, are completely different between Ruby and Crystal. > Your criticism does not seem rigorously considered. I'm a major contributor to the Ruby specifcation, and I've got a decade of full-time experience in writing about and implementing Ruby and its semantics, so I'm not just doing a drive-by comment.
        bb88 4y ago
        Not sure why you're being downvoted there. But you've made a good point.
        sethrin 4y ago
        Suffice it to say that I don't think the details of message passing are what most people care about with Ruby. I can see how your experience would lead you to believe otherwise.
        eropple 4y ago
        I strongly disagree. The message passing semantics are a pretty core part of why you can write pretty complex metaprogramming in Ruby and, without writing a lot of code, make a lot of stuff happen. And even somebody who "doesn't care" about that is critically indebted to it--because that's how Rails happens. This is not always for the best, of course, but I reach for Ruby pretty consistently when I need to do that sort of thing--often in a dynamic programming context or where I'm binding a lot of state to present a straightforward DSL to an end user (which Sorbet helps with quite a lot, too). Sometimes, for practical reasons, I'll do that sort of work in TypeScript, but the result usually has a lot more sandpaper to it. Crystal...just isn't that. At all. It's a fine language for what it is; it doesn't just offer anything that Ruby, TypeScript, Kotlin, and Rust don't, so I have no use for it. But it's definitely not Ruby and it doesn't even smell like Ruby.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Crystal also has union types and concurrency. Ruby has had concurrency forever, and as of 3.x also parallelism via Ractors.
    - metadat 4y ago
      You may be missing the point - Vanilla Ruby is relatively slow and expensive to scale. That's why I use node.js *grin* /s
- munificent 4y ago
  I don't know if it's fair to just declare that semantics are the important bit. I suspect that for many users, much of what they like about Ruby is the syntax and core library, and to the degree that Crystal follows that, it will provide much of the same delight that Ruby does.

thr0wawayf00 4y ago

The block syntax is a wonderful way to build and chain flexible iterative logic, the object model is fairly straightforward and the standard library strikes a good balance between functionality and brevity. Once you start to pick up on ruby idioms, the language is pretty fun to use IMO.

weatherlight 4y ago

- takes its object-oriented cues from Smalltalk and not Java/C++/(other class oriented OO langs). - Block notation allows for easy composability of logic. - very easy to make DSLs. - takes a lot of hints from Functional dynamic langs like Lisp.

RangerScience 4y ago

In a broad and abstract sense (and IMHO), Ruby has a substantial core and community-wide commitment of aiming for that pleasantness, and a track record of achieving it. I usually compare/contrast to Python's 10 Principles / Zen of Python, which are rather explicitly about the code itself; instead, Ruby has "developer happiness" and "ruby is nice so we are nice". These show up in many, many small ways throughout both the code ecosystem and within the human community (rubyconf!). There are ofc concrete things to point to, but other comments have already done so, and this bit is a personal fav :)

Buttons840 4y ago

For a lot of people it's the syntax that makes Ruby pleasant. As evidence of this, I refer to other comments claiming languages like Crystal or Elixir are alternative (or better?) versions of Ruby, even though the only thing they have in common is their syntax.

nevinera 4y ago

Initially? Not a whole lot. The point though, is that you used ruby/rails to rapidly build a startup, and then you have a successful business that is _stuck with a massive ruby/rails monolith_. This is where you start extracting services, or refactoring around engines, or some other strategy - doing that involves a huge amount of careful refactoring, and Sorbet can really help.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

An incredibly rich standard library. The built in classes and modulrs have so much functionality built in. They compose very nicely.

jbverschoor 4y ago

Very good standard libraries and heavy use of lambdas

petercooper 4y ago

what does Ruby offer fhat makes it so "pleasant" to use? For me, it fits my mental model of approaching problems quite well. I tend to write a lot of smaller programs for small tasks and when it comes to general chucking data around, Ruby isn't fast, but I can go from problem to solution with as little extraneous nonsense as possible. Python is also quite good at this, but I find it a bit less consistent and tend to question my approach far more unless there's a library that already does the thing I want to do (more often the case with Python, though, to be fair). Python and Ruby have similar conciseness:readability ratios for me, but Ruby has the added benefits of slightly better writability into the mix.

lkrubner 4y ago

That's a very good question. I think in the old days people would have said "Ruby offers the most flexible meta-programming available in a popular script language." Back around 2005 there was a major flamewar between Lisp advocates and Ruby advocates: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12470715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12470715 But nowadays, when I want beautiful meta-programming, I use Clojure. I think Ruby survives now because of Rails. And Rails is a major technology, so that is a valid reason for Ruby to survive. But it is good to be clear where the advantage is coming from: the framework and not the language. Ruby has fallen behind, if you want great meta programming, you can get all the joy, plus much better speed, by using something like Clojure. That also gives you access to the vast ecosystem of Java libraries. But Rails is a different story. For jumpstarting a greenfield API or CRUD app, there is nothing quite as good as Rails. Django and Symfony and other frameworks have tried to imitate Rails, but Rails is still way out in front, with better tools, and the marriage of Rails tools with Ruby's advanced meta-programming is something difficult to replicate elsewhere. If your company needs a custom CRM or CMS, Rails remains the best starting place.