4 ms·

This is an interesting comment on a thread which is essentially about free speech. If the data shows that conservatives are more racist than liberals, why shoul

This is an interesting comment on a thread which is essentially about free speech. If the data shows that conservatives are more racist than liberals, why should that be censored?

baskethead 4y ago
Because the charge that this is indoctrinating young children to be anti-conservative would be valid. This isn't a free speech issue, it's a question of appropriateness. Having a graph showing about oranges vs lemons is appropriate for a math textbook. Making an comment about how conservatives are more racist than liberals is not appropriate for a math textbook. How would you feel if that graph instead showed "56% of all crimes are committed by African Americans"? That statistic is true, but is that appropriate for a math textbook without a deeper conversation about underlying causes?
- PierceJoy 4y ago
  > Because the charge that this is indoctrinating young children to be anti-conservative would be valid. Is a hard truth indoctrination? > This isn't a free speech issue, it's a question of appropriateness. Excellent point. Doesn't this apply to the so-called censorship on Twitter as well? No one is getting arrested, and thus is cannot be a free speech issue. Should Twitter not get to decide what is appropriate on their platform? > Making an comment about how conservatives are more racist than liberals is not appropriate for a math textbook. What if the purpose of math textbooks should be to teach how math is applied in the real world? A graph of oranges vs lemons isn't going to be good at that. This sounds like the same argument used to justify "shielding" kids from homosexuality. > How would you feel if that graph instead showed "56% of all crimes are committed by African Americans"? That statistic is true, but is that appropriate for a math textbook without a deeper conversation about underlying causes? This is a great rebuttal. Alone, I would agree it's not appropriate. But if the textbook then proceeded to use math to show why that might be the case, then I would fully support it. In fact, that would be an excellent addition to a statistics lesson for kids.
  - EricE 4y ago
EricE 4y ago
It wasn't data - it was an "example" of made up numbers. But you immediately assumed the numbers were based on something factual. Because it fit your biases? Was published in a text book? Doesn't matter - your post proves why it was a horrible, horrible thing to have - in a math book of all things! There are plenty of subjects to have as examples yet they had to pick something political? Your damn right it was attempted indoctrination!
throwawaylinux 4y ago
Would that be using some new definition of "racist" that liberals invented to brand their opponents racist and absolve their own racism, and that you have to accept as the canonical definition otherwise you are a racist racism-denier? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30843726/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30843726/ Here's some actual data shows that liberals are more racist than conservatives. Would it be appropriate to go from there to the government indoctrinating the nation's elementary school students into believing that liberals are more racist than conservatives?
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  This too is a fact. Those minorities are less competent. Liberals recognize that fact and propose how to fix it. Conservatives say it is genetics and ignore the problem, making it worse. Which of these is racist?
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    > This too is a fact. What is a fact? > Those minorities are less competent. "Those minorities"? You mean the individuals involved in the interaction? I didn't see where the study establishes that those people are less competent. Or do you mean the individuals are being stereotyped based on an assumed racial statistic? > Liberals recognize that fact and propose how to fix it. Conservatives say it is genetics and ignore the problem, making it worse. Well that's not what this study demonstrates. And which conservatives do you believe say this anyway? The ones in this study? The average conservative? Or the imaginary boogyman that your math textbook warned you about? > Which of these is racist? Assuming a black individual one is conversing with is less competent due to their skin color and treating them differently because of that, is racist. Making no assumptions about an individual's competence based on their skin color and treating them as you would any other individual is not racist. At least that's my definition of the word and the one I was taught.
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      > What is a fact? I stated the fact in the very next sentence, which you quoted. > I didn't see where the study establishes that those people are less competent. That was not the point of the study. Other studies have established this fact. > Well that's not what this study demonstrates. I didn't claim it did. You seem to have a serious reading comprehension problem. > And which conservatives do you believe say this anyway? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4567596/?report=classic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4567596/?report... https://archive.ph/uXMIg https://archive.ph/uXMIg https://www.vox.com/2018/4/10/17182692/bell-curve-charles-murray-policy-wrong https://www.vox.com/2018/4/10/17182692/bell-curve-charles-mu... > Assuming a black individual one is conversing with is less competent due to their skin color and treating them differently because of that, is racist The study didn't show that the liberal whites assumed these groups were less competent and treated them that way but that liberal whites assumed that the audience was less interested in competence-related terms for voting and changed how they campaigned to them, probably around how they would fix the problems unique to these groups, which the conservative politicians ignored. To be clear, what is racist is assuming the problems that these groups face is due to genetic mental inferiority, which is what conservatives assume, as the study I linked above shows.
prawn 4y ago
Is there a distinction between censorship and a subset of books approved as curriculum? To me (not from the US, far from conservative), it seems needlessly divisive. I'm all for real-world examples in maths/science instruction, but there'd surely be better alternatives that keep focus on learning the core topic at hand.
throwawaylinux 4y ago
What if data "shows" that liberals are more selfish and greedy than conservatives? https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-lefts-idea-of-generosity-11549228822 https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-lefts-idea-of-generosit... Should the government indoctrinate the nation's school children with these "facts", in classes where they're supposed to be learning math?

This is an interesting comment on a thread which is essentially about free speech. If the data shows that conservatives are more racist than liberals, why should that be censored?

baskethead 4y ago

Because the charge that this is indoctrinating young children to be anti-conservative would be valid. This isn't a free speech issue, it's a question of appropriateness. Having a graph showing about oranges vs lemons is appropriate for a math textbook. Making an comment about how conservatives are more racist than liberals is not appropriate for a math textbook. How would you feel if that graph instead showed "56% of all crimes are committed by African Americans"? That statistic is true, but is that appropriate for a math textbook without a deeper conversation about underlying causes?

PierceJoy 4y ago
> Because the charge that this is indoctrinating young children to be anti-conservative would be valid. Is a hard truth indoctrination? > This isn't a free speech issue, it's a question of appropriateness. Excellent point. Doesn't this apply to the so-called censorship on Twitter as well? No one is getting arrested, and thus is cannot be a free speech issue. Should Twitter not get to decide what is appropriate on their platform? > Making an comment about how conservatives are more racist than liberals is not appropriate for a math textbook. What if the purpose of math textbooks should be to teach how math is applied in the real world? A graph of oranges vs lemons isn't going to be good at that. This sounds like the same argument used to justify "shielding" kids from homosexuality. > How would you feel if that graph instead showed "56% of all crimes are committed by African Americans"? That statistic is true, but is that appropriate for a math textbook without a deeper conversation about underlying causes? This is a great rebuttal. Alone, I would agree it's not appropriate. But if the textbook then proceeded to use math to show why that might be the case, then I would fully support it. In fact, that would be an excellent addition to a statistics lesson for kids.
- EricE 4y ago

EricE 4y ago

It wasn't data - it was an "example" of made up numbers. But you immediately assumed the numbers were based on something factual. Because it fit your biases? Was published in a text book? Doesn't matter - your post proves why it was a horrible, horrible thing to have - in a math book of all things! There are plenty of subjects to have as examples yet they had to pick something political? Your damn right it was attempted indoctrination!

throwawaylinux 4y ago

Would that be using some new definition of "racist" that liberals invented to brand their opponents racist and absolve their own racism, and that you have to accept as the canonical definition otherwise you are a racist racism-denier? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30843726/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30843726/ Here's some actual data shows that liberals are more racist than conservatives. Would it be appropriate to go from there to the government indoctrinating the nation's elementary school students into believing that liberals are more racist than conservatives?

lern_too_spel 4y ago
This too is a fact. Those minorities are less competent. Liberals recognize that fact and propose how to fix it. Conservatives say it is genetics and ignore the problem, making it worse. Which of these is racist?
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  > This too is a fact. What is a fact? > Those minorities are less competent. "Those minorities"? You mean the individuals involved in the interaction? I didn't see where the study establishes that those people are less competent. Or do you mean the individuals are being stereotyped based on an assumed racial statistic? > Liberals recognize that fact and propose how to fix it. Conservatives say it is genetics and ignore the problem, making it worse. Well that's not what this study demonstrates. And which conservatives do you believe say this anyway? The ones in this study? The average conservative? Or the imaginary boogyman that your math textbook warned you about? > Which of these is racist? Assuming a black individual one is conversing with is less competent due to their skin color and treating them differently because of that, is racist. Making no assumptions about an individual's competence based on their skin color and treating them as you would any other individual is not racist. At least that's my definition of the word and the one I was taught.
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    > What is a fact? I stated the fact in the very next sentence, which you quoted. > I didn't see where the study establishes that those people are less competent. That was not the point of the study. Other studies have established this fact. > Well that's not what this study demonstrates. I didn't claim it did. You seem to have a serious reading comprehension problem. > And which conservatives do you believe say this anyway? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4567596/?report=classic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4567596/?report... https://archive.ph/uXMIg https://archive.ph/uXMIg https://www.vox.com/2018/4/10/17182692/bell-curve-charles-murray-policy-wrong https://www.vox.com/2018/4/10/17182692/bell-curve-charles-mu... > Assuming a black individual one is conversing with is less competent due to their skin color and treating them differently because of that, is racist The study didn't show that the liberal whites assumed these groups were less competent and treated them that way but that liberal whites assumed that the audience was less interested in competence-related terms for voting and changed how they campaigned to them, probably around how they would fix the problems unique to these groups, which the conservative politicians ignored. To be clear, what is racist is assuming the problems that these groups face is due to genetic mental inferiority, which is what conservatives assume, as the study I linked above shows.

prawn 4y ago

Is there a distinction between censorship and a subset of books approved as curriculum? To me (not from the US, far from conservative), it seems needlessly divisive. I'm all for real-world examples in maths/science instruction, but there'd surely be better alternatives that keep focus on learning the core topic at hand.

throwawaylinux 4y ago

What if data "shows" that liberals are more selfish and greedy than conservatives? https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-lefts-idea-of-generosity-11549228822 https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-lefts-idea-of-generosit... Should the government indoctrinate the nation's school children with these "facts", in classes where they're supposed to be learning math?