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The only other "concerning" portion I could find in GP's link was: > Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender

The only other "concerning" portion I could find in GP's link was: > Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate This seems reasonable given we usually don't teach sex-ed until 5th or 6th grade. > But that wasn't happening I can tell you with certainty that this is definitely happening in California schools, no clue about Florida.

PierceJoy 4y ago
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  > do you have any evidence this has resulted in a worse mathematics education Yes. Holding back advanced kids from taking Algebra I or other higher level classes until high school materially harms their progression and ability to learn college level math as teenagers, which in turn harms their ability to learn higher math in college. When I was in middle school I took the equivalent of Algebra I in 6th grade. That's a 3 year gap to taking it in high school. In China they teach Algebra I in elementary school. How does mandating everyone stick to the same track of mediocrity help America's competitiveness? > Is it possible that is just your perception as a person who may not support education on gender and race? Modern woke "education" on race/gender focuses exclusively on black/latino races and LGBT peoples. There is no discussion of other races which have historically been, as woke people say, oppressed, such as Middle Eastern or Asian people. There is a single minded idea that black/latino/LGBT/women must be the only oppressed groups and that anyone else with a dissenting opinion to this is invalid or privileged. That lack of critical thinking and discussion is not what our kids should be learning. For example, no discussion is given to the fact that Jews were historically discriminated against by Harvard and other prestigious schools, because Jews are mostly white. Similarly no discussion is given to the fact that Asians today are discriminated against by Harvard and other prestigious schools and corporations. There is no discussion on the Chinese Exclusion Act and Japanese concentration camps of WWII. Why? Because Asians are "overrepresented" and serve as a counterexample to the narrative that systemic discrimination can't be overcome with hard work.
  - PierceJoy 4y ago
    Regarding the first part, I don't disagree. However, that has nothing to do with gender or race. The question was whether gender/race education has been prioritized over math/science, and if so, did it result in worse math/science education. What you described has been happening long before anyone cared about gender and race. > Modern woke "education" on race/gender focuses exclusively on black/latino races and LGBT peoples. Because those are the groups who have historically been most oppressed in North America. I'm sure students will have discussion at some point about Asians being discriminated against by Harvard, but it's clear that slavery and gay bashing has had a much worse effect on black and gay people than being rejected by Harvard has had on Asian people, and I say this as an Asian person.
    - WhyOhWhyQ 4y ago
      The person you're responded to stated: "There is no discussion on the Chinese Exclusion Act and Japanese concentration camps of WWII." You're making their point by disregarding that bit.
      - PierceJoy 4y ago
        I can’t speak to the CEA, but we do teach kids about Japanese internment. Let’s assume that we focus more on black and gay issues though. The parent answered his own question as to why we might focus more on black and gay issues > Because Asians are “overrepresented” It makes more sense focus on underrepresented groups than overrepresented groups when trying to address systemic issues. It’s more efficient.
        WhyOhWhyQ 4y ago
        Forgive me for continuing this thread, but the original poster does not seem to imply that overrepresentation is the reason we don't focus on Asians. They actually use scare quotes when using the word 'overrepresented'. You also disregarded the part of their answer which doesn't seem to include doubt. The full quote is: "Because Asians are "overrepresented" and serve as a counterexample to the narrative that systemic discrimination can't be overcome with hard work." And if their use of scare quotes is to express doubt that "overrepresentation" is a good justification for discrimination, then I agree. I also don't believe gay people are underrepresented in higher education, relative to their overall population in the United States, so I don't find that part of your argument compelling. I've found this quote with a brief Google search, "The three surveys of American adults consistently indicated that gay men are far more likely than straight men to have graduated from high school or college, with just over half of gay men having earned a college degree, compared with about 35 percent of straight men. Some 6 percent of gay men have a Ph.D., J.D. or M.D. — a rate 50 percent higher than that of straight men." From this article: https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/straight-men-face-educational-crisis-gay-men-excel-academically-study-rcna18018 https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/straight-men-face-e...
LargeWu 4y ago
Both of my children have or had classmates in their second grade classrooms that are openly transgender. The idea that sexual or gender orientation is or should be a taboo topic at that age is harmful to those children, and that kids that age are too young to talk about it is not, to my knowledge, backed by empirical evidence. Forcing schools to silence these kids' identities is hateful and reactionary.
- twofornone 4y ago
  >Both of my children have or had classmates in their second grade classrooms that are openly transgender. What does that even mean? That a boy prefers to play with dolls? How can a prepubescent second grade child be trans!?
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > How can a prepubescent second grade child be trans!? Do you mean “how can they have a gender identity”? or “how can it be different than their assigned gender at birth“? I’m trying to figure out what you don't understand here. Do cisgender identities in children that age surprise you?
  - LargeWu 4y ago
    Let us try a thought experiment. Let’s suppose you have male genitals, and everybody called you a girl in your early elementary years. Would that have caused you to feel confused? angry? depressed? If so, why?
    - twofornone 4y ago
      What separates a cis child from a trans child? How could you reliably detect/diagnose such a condition? Timmy doesn't like having a boy's name? Timmy doesn't like playing with male toys or prefers wearing dresses to pants? Children throw tantrums over all sorts of trivial stuff, how could you possibly diagnose gender dysphoria off the fleeting whims of a preteen child? What's arguably more dangerous is having an authority figure dictate to an impressionable child that they're "trapped in the wrong body" and setting them up for a lifetime of confusion. I don't think proponents of LGBT in the classroom realize that gender dysphoria is socially infectious, particularly when it is advertised as a solution to the typical confusion and angst that teens feel as they transition into adulthood.

PierceJoy 4y ago

ceeplusplus 4y ago
> do you have any evidence this has resulted in a worse mathematics education Yes. Holding back advanced kids from taking Algebra I or other higher level classes until high school materially harms their progression and ability to learn college level math as teenagers, which in turn harms their ability to learn higher math in college. When I was in middle school I took the equivalent of Algebra I in 6th grade. That's a 3 year gap to taking it in high school. In China they teach Algebra I in elementary school. How does mandating everyone stick to the same track of mediocrity help America's competitiveness? > Is it possible that is just your perception as a person who may not support education on gender and race? Modern woke "education" on race/gender focuses exclusively on black/latino races and LGBT peoples. There is no discussion of other races which have historically been, as woke people say, oppressed, such as Middle Eastern or Asian people. There is a single minded idea that black/latino/LGBT/women must be the only oppressed groups and that anyone else with a dissenting opinion to this is invalid or privileged. That lack of critical thinking and discussion is not what our kids should be learning. For example, no discussion is given to the fact that Jews were historically discriminated against by Harvard and other prestigious schools, because Jews are mostly white. Similarly no discussion is given to the fact that Asians today are discriminated against by Harvard and other prestigious schools and corporations. There is no discussion on the Chinese Exclusion Act and Japanese concentration camps of WWII. Why? Because Asians are "overrepresented" and serve as a counterexample to the narrative that systemic discrimination can't be overcome with hard work.
- PierceJoy 4y ago
  Regarding the first part, I don't disagree. However, that has nothing to do with gender or race. The question was whether gender/race education has been prioritized over math/science, and if so, did it result in worse math/science education. What you described has been happening long before anyone cared about gender and race. > Modern woke "education" on race/gender focuses exclusively on black/latino races and LGBT peoples. Because those are the groups who have historically been most oppressed in North America. I'm sure students will have discussion at some point about Asians being discriminated against by Harvard, but it's clear that slavery and gay bashing has had a much worse effect on black and gay people than being rejected by Harvard has had on Asian people, and I say this as an Asian person.
  - WhyOhWhyQ 4y ago
    The person you're responded to stated: "There is no discussion on the Chinese Exclusion Act and Japanese concentration camps of WWII." You're making their point by disregarding that bit.
    - PierceJoy 4y ago
      I can’t speak to the CEA, but we do teach kids about Japanese internment. Let’s assume that we focus more on black and gay issues though. The parent answered his own question as to why we might focus more on black and gay issues > Because Asians are “overrepresented” It makes more sense focus on underrepresented groups than overrepresented groups when trying to address systemic issues. It’s more efficient.
      - WhyOhWhyQ 4y ago
        Forgive me for continuing this thread, but the original poster does not seem to imply that overrepresentation is the reason we don't focus on Asians. They actually use scare quotes when using the word 'overrepresented'. You also disregarded the part of their answer which doesn't seem to include doubt. The full quote is: "Because Asians are "overrepresented" and serve as a counterexample to the narrative that systemic discrimination can't be overcome with hard work." And if their use of scare quotes is to express doubt that "overrepresentation" is a good justification for discrimination, then I agree. I also don't believe gay people are underrepresented in higher education, relative to their overall population in the United States, so I don't find that part of your argument compelling. I've found this quote with a brief Google search, "The three surveys of American adults consistently indicated that gay men are far more likely than straight men to have graduated from high school or college, with just over half of gay men having earned a college degree, compared with about 35 percent of straight men. Some 6 percent of gay men have a Ph.D., J.D. or M.D. — a rate 50 percent higher than that of straight men." From this article: https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/straight-men-face-educational-crisis-gay-men-excel-academically-study-rcna18018 https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/straight-men-face-e...

LargeWu 4y ago

Both of my children have or had classmates in their second grade classrooms that are openly transgender. The idea that sexual or gender orientation is or should be a taboo topic at that age is harmful to those children, and that kids that age are too young to talk about it is not, to my knowledge, backed by empirical evidence. Forcing schools to silence these kids' identities is hateful and reactionary.

twofornone 4y ago
>Both of my children have or had classmates in their second grade classrooms that are openly transgender. What does that even mean? That a boy prefers to play with dolls? How can a prepubescent second grade child be trans!?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > How can a prepubescent second grade child be trans!? Do you mean “how can they have a gender identity”? or “how can it be different than their assigned gender at birth“? I’m trying to figure out what you don't understand here. Do cisgender identities in children that age surprise you?
- LargeWu 4y ago
  Let us try a thought experiment. Let’s suppose you have male genitals, and everybody called you a girl in your early elementary years. Would that have caused you to feel confused? angry? depressed? If so, why?
  - twofornone 4y ago
    What separates a cis child from a trans child? How could you reliably detect/diagnose such a condition? Timmy doesn't like having a boy's name? Timmy doesn't like playing with male toys or prefers wearing dresses to pants? Children throw tantrums over all sorts of trivial stuff, how could you possibly diagnose gender dysphoria off the fleeting whims of a preteen child? What's arguably more dangerous is having an authority figure dictate to an impressionable child that they're "trapped in the wrong body" and setting them up for a lifetime of confusion. I don't think proponents of LGBT in the classroom realize that gender dysphoria is socially infectious, particularly when it is advertised as a solution to the typical confusion and angst that teens feel as they transition into adulthood.