13 ms·

> In fact it is making me judge whether I should defect and not vote for Democrats in the next election. While I don't think your position on free speech is un

> In fact it is making me judge whether I should defect and not vote for Democrats in the next election. While I don't think your position on free speech is unreasonable, to overlook the harmful things the right is doing and base your vote on Twitter's moderation policies seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Off the top of my head: * Don't say gay bill * Huge restrictions on abortions that have been enacted recently and will undoubtedly be upheld by the SCOTUS. Even in cases of rape and incest. * Gerrymandering, ensuring the right will stay in control even if they are not supported by the electorate. * Restrictions placed on voting that target minorities I also think phrasing this as crushing political dissent is a gross exaggeration. We're talking about very extreme people being suspended from a social media website. No one is getting arrested. If you want to see examples of people being arrested, look at Texas where a woman was recently arrested for suspicion of having an abortion, or Florida where Desantis had a researcher arrested for releasing COVID data.

systemvoltage 4y ago
- PierceJoy 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - ceeplusplus 4y ago
    The only other "concerning" portion I could find in GP's link was: > Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate This seems reasonable given we usually don't teach sex-ed until 5th or 6th grade. > But that wasn't happening I can tell you with certainty that this is definitely happening in California schools, no clue about Florida.
    - PierceJoy 4y ago
      - ceeplusplus 4y ago
        > do you have any evidence this has resulted in a worse mathematics education Yes. Holding back advanced kids from taking Algebra I or other higher level classes until high school materially harms their progression and ability to learn college level math as teenagers, which in turn harms their ability to learn higher math in college. When I was in middle school I took the equivalent of Algebra I in 6th grade. That's a 3 year gap to taking it in high school. In China they teach Algebra I in elementary school. How does mandating everyone stick to the same track of mediocrity help America's competitiveness? > Is it possible that is just your perception as a person who may not support education on gender and race? Modern woke "education" on race/gender focuses exclusively on black/latino races and LGBT peoples. There is no discussion of other races which have historically been, as woke people say, oppressed, such as Middle Eastern or Asian people. There is a single minded idea that black/latino/LGBT/women must be the only oppressed groups and that anyone else with a dissenting opinion to this is invalid or privileged. That lack of critical thinking and discussion is not what our kids should be learning. For example, no discussion is given to the fact that Jews were historically discriminated against by Harvard and other prestigious schools, because Jews are mostly white. Similarly no discussion is given to the fact that Asians today are discriminated against by Harvard and other prestigious schools and corporations. There is no discussion on the Chinese Exclusion Act and Japanese concentration camps of WWII. Why? Because Asians are "overrepresented" and serve as a counterexample to the narrative that systemic discrimination can't be overcome with hard work.
        PierceJoy 4y ago
        Regarding the first part, I don't disagree. However, that has nothing to do with gender or race. The question was whether gender/race education has been prioritized over math/science, and if so, did it result in worse math/science education. What you described has been happening long before anyone cared about gender and race. > Modern woke "education" on race/gender focuses exclusively on black/latino races and LGBT peoples. Because those are the groups who have historically been most oppressed in North America. I'm sure students will have discussion at some point about Asians being discriminated against by Harvard, but it's clear that slavery and gay bashing has had a much worse effect on black and gay people than being rejected by Harvard has had on Asian people, and I say this as an Asian person.
  - baskethead 4y ago
    > And Florida recently rejected math textbooks claiming they push critical race theory. It wasn't just a claim. One example shown was a math textbook that showed a graph saying that conservatives were more racist than liberals. I'm a staunch liberal but I found that to be pretty shocking. I would love to see more examples from the other textbooks, but for that particular textbook, I myself would have no qualms telling the published to change that graph to something less divisive.
    - PierceJoy 4y ago
      This is an interesting comment on a thread which is essentially about free speech. If the data shows that conservatives are more racist than liberals, why should that be censored?
      - baskethead 4y ago
        Because the charge that this is indoctrinating young children to be anti-conservative would be valid. This isn't a free speech issue, it's a question of appropriateness. Having a graph showing about oranges vs lemons is appropriate for a math textbook. Making an comment about how conservatives are more racist than liberals is not appropriate for a math textbook. How would you feel if that graph instead showed "56% of all crimes are committed by African Americans"? That statistic is true, but is that appropriate for a math textbook without a deeper conversation about underlying causes?
        PierceJoy 4y ago
        > Because the charge that this is indoctrinating young children to be anti-conservative would be valid. Is a hard truth indoctrination? > This isn't a free speech issue, it's a question of appropriateness. Excellent point. Doesn't this apply to the so-called censorship on Twitter as well? No one is getting arrested, and thus is cannot be a free speech issue. Should Twitter not get to decide what is appropriate on their platform? > Making an comment about how conservatives are more racist than liberals is not appropriate for a math textbook. What if the purpose of math textbooks should be to teach how math is applied in the real world? A graph of oranges vs lemons isn't going to be good at that. This sounds like the same argument used to justify "shielding" kids from homosexuality. > How would you feel if that graph instead showed "56% of all crimes are committed by African Americans"? That statistic is true, but is that appropriate for a math textbook without a deeper conversation about underlying causes? This is a great rebuttal. Alone, I would agree it's not appropriate. But if the textbook then proceeded to use math to show why that might be the case, then I would fully support it. In fact, that would be an excellent addition to a statistics lesson for kids.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  Lines 97-101 say that you can't even legally teach a child sex-specific pronouns until they hit 4th grade. So strange that you would miss what people are actually upset about.
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    I think that's should be left up to parents. I personally don't want my kids to learn about sex at all until puberty. There is plenty of time in life to learn these things. So if anything, this bill gives freedom to whatever you please with your children as parents, but don't dogmatize them with controversial sex education as teachers. Btw, this is NOT a fringe view. The rest of the world operates like this including most progressive countries in Europe.
    - madeofpalk 4y ago
      What are "sex-specific pronouns"? Are they making it illegal to say "he"?
      - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
        Say? No. Teach it as the gender-normative pronoun to describe boys? Yes.
  - TimPC 4y ago
    Is it really so badly worded that you could complain about a teacher teaching he and she? That’s going to be fun when the trolls start filing lawsuits.
    - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
      Quote: "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards." They purposefully had to make it this vague so it could stand even the minimum of court scrutiny... unfortunately for them, the wording is impossible without explicitly stating what the purpose of the language of the bill is actually for, so... Every child is they/them and / or "students," not "boys and girls."
ameister14 4y ago
You should remove this part: " or Florida where Desantis had a researcher arrested for releasing COVID data. " She wasn't a researcher, she was an admin for the GIS dashboard. She was arrested because she misused her access credentials, mass-emailed everyone then took 19,000 personnel files and transferred them to her home computer. She did the classic thing when she was removed from being in charge of the dashboard (not fired, just reassigned) - she crashed the dashboard while her permissions were still active by creating a new admin account and transferring a boatload of data to it. She refused to make the new admin an admin for 'security reasons' and then told the media she was removed from being in charge of the dashboard because they wanted to lie about the data. THAT is what they fired her for. Florida didn't have her manually falsify data - there is no evidence that they falsified data at all. She's just nuts.
positus 4y ago
- egypturnash 4y ago
  1. This includes teachers mentioning a same-sex spouse. Unless it prevents straight teachers mentioning their other-sexed spouse as well, it is not “preventing sexuality and gender issues”, it’s preventing anything besides “straight” from being seen as existing. Which sure will be fun for, say, a kid with two moms or dads. 2. Your chain of logic is lacking the nuance that when, exactly, a bundle of cells with the potential to become a human being, if it’s supported by a healthy womb for nine months, actually becomes “a human being” is very much up for debate.
  - positus 4y ago
    > 2. Your chain of logic is lacking the nuance that when, exactly, a bundle of cells with the potential to become a human being, if it’s supported by a healthy womb for nine months, actually becomes “a human being” is very much up for debate. If "when it becomes a human being" is unknown, we should err on the side of saving the life rather than ending it.
- PierceJoy 4y ago
  The other commenter addressed this well, but it bears repeating. Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not a human being. Period. The US is the only country regressing on this issue. This is only temporary, of course. You will join the rest of the world eventually. Even with this regression, 60% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases.
  - positus 4y ago
    > A fetus is not a human being Does passage through the vaginal canal confer humanity?
- Siira 4y ago
  Eating is the consumption of matter for the continued survival of the organism. Breathing is the consumption of matter for the continued survival of the organism. Ergo, breathing is eating.
raxxorraxor 4y ago
To be honest the latest additional restrictions on abortions are a consequence of political parties advocating for them in a really bad way in my opinion. The common slogan was bodily autonomy of the mothers. Not only in the pandemic did it become clear how opportunistic that position was aside from the fact that there is also a consideration of the bodily autonomy of the child. I am in favor of abortion rights. Without them they still happen in a far more gruesome way. But I will not deny that there are some problems that might warrant discussion. In fact I think it was social media that promoted the worst advertisers for the position for abortion and I think that pushed a lot of people away. The topic quickly becomes emotional and self-righteousness often fails to advertise sensibly.

systemvoltage 4y ago

PierceJoy 4y ago
[flagged]
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  The only other "concerning" portion I could find in GP's link was: > Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate This seems reasonable given we usually don't teach sex-ed until 5th or 6th grade. > But that wasn't happening I can tell you with certainty that this is definitely happening in California schools, no clue about Florida.
  - PierceJoy 4y ago
    - ceeplusplus 4y ago
      > do you have any evidence this has resulted in a worse mathematics education Yes. Holding back advanced kids from taking Algebra I or other higher level classes until high school materially harms their progression and ability to learn college level math as teenagers, which in turn harms their ability to learn higher math in college. When I was in middle school I took the equivalent of Algebra I in 6th grade. That's a 3 year gap to taking it in high school. In China they teach Algebra I in elementary school. How does mandating everyone stick to the same track of mediocrity help America's competitiveness? > Is it possible that is just your perception as a person who may not support education on gender and race? Modern woke "education" on race/gender focuses exclusively on black/latino races and LGBT peoples. There is no discussion of other races which have historically been, as woke people say, oppressed, such as Middle Eastern or Asian people. There is a single minded idea that black/latino/LGBT/women must be the only oppressed groups and that anyone else with a dissenting opinion to this is invalid or privileged. That lack of critical thinking and discussion is not what our kids should be learning. For example, no discussion is given to the fact that Jews were historically discriminated against by Harvard and other prestigious schools, because Jews are mostly white. Similarly no discussion is given to the fact that Asians today are discriminated against by Harvard and other prestigious schools and corporations. There is no discussion on the Chinese Exclusion Act and Japanese concentration camps of WWII. Why? Because Asians are "overrepresented" and serve as a counterexample to the narrative that systemic discrimination can't be overcome with hard work.
      - PierceJoy 4y ago
        Regarding the first part, I don't disagree. However, that has nothing to do with gender or race. The question was whether gender/race education has been prioritized over math/science, and if so, did it result in worse math/science education. What you described has been happening long before anyone cared about gender and race. > Modern woke "education" on race/gender focuses exclusively on black/latino races and LGBT peoples. Because those are the groups who have historically been most oppressed in North America. I'm sure students will have discussion at some point about Asians being discriminated against by Harvard, but it's clear that slavery and gay bashing has had a much worse effect on black and gay people than being rejected by Harvard has had on Asian people, and I say this as an Asian person.
- baskethead 4y ago
  > And Florida recently rejected math textbooks claiming they push critical race theory. It wasn't just a claim. One example shown was a math textbook that showed a graph saying that conservatives were more racist than liberals. I'm a staunch liberal but I found that to be pretty shocking. I would love to see more examples from the other textbooks, but for that particular textbook, I myself would have no qualms telling the published to change that graph to something less divisive.
  - PierceJoy 4y ago
    This is an interesting comment on a thread which is essentially about free speech. If the data shows that conservatives are more racist than liberals, why should that be censored?
    - baskethead 4y ago
      Because the charge that this is indoctrinating young children to be anti-conservative would be valid. This isn't a free speech issue, it's a question of appropriateness. Having a graph showing about oranges vs lemons is appropriate for a math textbook. Making an comment about how conservatives are more racist than liberals is not appropriate for a math textbook. How would you feel if that graph instead showed "56% of all crimes are committed by African Americans"? That statistic is true, but is that appropriate for a math textbook without a deeper conversation about underlying causes?
      - PierceJoy 4y ago
        > Because the charge that this is indoctrinating young children to be anti-conservative would be valid. Is a hard truth indoctrination? > This isn't a free speech issue, it's a question of appropriateness. Excellent point. Doesn't this apply to the so-called censorship on Twitter as well? No one is getting arrested, and thus is cannot be a free speech issue. Should Twitter not get to decide what is appropriate on their platform? > Making an comment about how conservatives are more racist than liberals is not appropriate for a math textbook. What if the purpose of math textbooks should be to teach how math is applied in the real world? A graph of oranges vs lemons isn't going to be good at that. This sounds like the same argument used to justify "shielding" kids from homosexuality. > How would you feel if that graph instead showed "56% of all crimes are committed by African Americans"? That statistic is true, but is that appropriate for a math textbook without a deeper conversation about underlying causes? This is a great rebuttal. Alone, I would agree it's not appropriate. But if the textbook then proceeded to use math to show why that might be the case, then I would fully support it. In fact, that would be an excellent addition to a statistics lesson for kids.
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
Lines 97-101 say that you can't even legally teach a child sex-specific pronouns until they hit 4th grade. So strange that you would miss what people are actually upset about.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  I think that's should be left up to parents. I personally don't want my kids to learn about sex at all until puberty. There is plenty of time in life to learn these things. So if anything, this bill gives freedom to whatever you please with your children as parents, but don't dogmatize them with controversial sex education as teachers. Btw, this is NOT a fringe view. The rest of the world operates like this including most progressive countries in Europe.
  - madeofpalk 4y ago
    What are "sex-specific pronouns"? Are they making it illegal to say "he"?
    - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
      Say? No. Teach it as the gender-normative pronoun to describe boys? Yes.
- TimPC 4y ago
  Is it really so badly worded that you could complain about a teacher teaching he and she? That’s going to be fun when the trolls start filing lawsuits.
  - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
    Quote: "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards." They purposefully had to make it this vague so it could stand even the minimum of court scrutiny... unfortunately for them, the wording is impossible without explicitly stating what the purpose of the language of the bill is actually for, so... Every child is they/them and / or "students," not "boys and girls."

ameister14 4y ago

You should remove this part: " or Florida where Desantis had a researcher arrested for releasing COVID data. " She wasn't a researcher, she was an admin for the GIS dashboard. She was arrested because she misused her access credentials, mass-emailed everyone then took 19,000 personnel files and transferred them to her home computer. She did the classic thing when she was removed from being in charge of the dashboard (not fired, just reassigned) - she crashed the dashboard while her permissions were still active by creating a new admin account and transferring a boatload of data to it. She refused to make the new admin an admin for 'security reasons' and then told the media she was removed from being in charge of the dashboard because they wanted to lie about the data. THAT is what they fired her for. Florida didn't have her manually falsify data - there is no evidence that they falsified data at all. She's just nuts.

positus 4y ago

egypturnash 4y ago
1. This includes teachers mentioning a same-sex spouse. Unless it prevents straight teachers mentioning their other-sexed spouse as well, it is not “preventing sexuality and gender issues”, it’s preventing anything besides “straight” from being seen as existing. Which sure will be fun for, say, a kid with two moms or dads. 2. Your chain of logic is lacking the nuance that when, exactly, a bundle of cells with the potential to become a human being, if it’s supported by a healthy womb for nine months, actually becomes “a human being” is very much up for debate.
- positus 4y ago
  > 2. Your chain of logic is lacking the nuance that when, exactly, a bundle of cells with the potential to become a human being, if it’s supported by a healthy womb for nine months, actually becomes “a human being” is very much up for debate. If "when it becomes a human being" is unknown, we should err on the side of saving the life rather than ending it.
PierceJoy 4y ago
The other commenter addressed this well, but it bears repeating. Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not a human being. Period. The US is the only country regressing on this issue. This is only temporary, of course. You will join the rest of the world eventually. Even with this regression, 60% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases.
- positus 4y ago
  > A fetus is not a human being Does passage through the vaginal canal confer humanity?
Siira 4y ago
Eating is the consumption of matter for the continued survival of the organism. Breathing is the consumption of matter for the continued survival of the organism. Ergo, breathing is eating.

raxxorraxor 4y ago

To be honest the latest additional restrictions on abortions are a consequence of political parties advocating for them in a really bad way in my opinion. The common slogan was bodily autonomy of the mothers. Not only in the pandemic did it become clear how opportunistic that position was aside from the fact that there is also a consideration of the bodily autonomy of the child. I am in favor of abortion rights. Without them they still happen in a far more gruesome way. But I will not deny that there are some problems that might warrant discussion. In fact I think it was social media that promoted the worst advertisers for the position for abortion and I think that pushed a lot of people away. The topic quickly becomes emotional and self-righteousness often fails to advertise sensibly.