3 ms·

Re: mid-career, no papers -- does this effectively result in ageism inside the academia? Widespread, but poorly hidden?

by marttt 4y ago

mattkrause 4y ago
It's even worse than that. You'll find tons of grants--and even jobs--that are time-gated: you must be within k years of your PhD, where k is pretty small (1,2, maybe 5). Annoyingly, these apply to some faculty-level things (e.g., ESI status for NIH grants), so if you start on the back foot, it's hard to catch up. This is bad for a lot of reasons. It's discriminatory (and arguably illegal, since it must have a "disparate impact" on people over 40). It also shapes the sort of research people do. It encourages trainees to work on established projects in established labs, which promotes orthdoxy and thwarts the idea of training people for careers as independent investigators. It rewards choosing techniques that are "safe" and fast-moving.
- btrettel 4y ago
  > You'll find tons of grants--and even jobs--that are time-gated: you must be within k years of your PhD, where k is pretty small (1, 2, maybe 5). I finished my PhD in 2020. The research job market was terrible back then, and I'm getting close to the 2 year mark where I'll age out of a lot of opportunities. These rules are going to prevent a lot of people from getting a job in science, and there's nothing they can do about it. Fortunately, in the case of many jobs, I think the time-since-PhD requirement is often boilerplate that is not enforced.
  - a_bonobo 4y ago
    In many places the time-since-PhD is also relevant to opportunity, so if you are 5 years post-PhD but you were unemployed for 2 years or outside academia, you count as 3 years post-PhD.
a_bonobo 4y ago
Yes, there is lots of ageism. If you don't have a Professorship in your 40s you're out, you'll rarely get a position. I've seen rare cases, but then you'd have to be really successful in your non-academic job - for example, upper levels of NGOs get recruited for highly visible professorships around NGOs, or business people get recruited for 'start up' professorships. These positions are usually 'handcrafted' for the business-person. But there's nothing below that, people won't jump into a mid-level academic career, those positions are full of 'regular' academics. Not just publications, but other reasons too - someone in their 40s has family and is not willing to work brutal hours and weekends required in many research labs, which someone in their 20s is more likely to accept. Of course it's worse if you're a mother.

Re: mid-career, no papers -- does this effectively result in ageism inside the academia? Widespread, but poorly hidden?

by marttt 4y ago

Re: mid-career, no papers -- does this effectively result in ageism inside the academia? Widespread, but poorly hidden?

It's even worse than that. You'll find tons of grants--and even jobs--that are time-gated: you must be within k years of your PhD, where k is pretty small (1,2, maybe 5). Annoyingly, these apply to some faculty-level things (e.g., ESI status for NIH grants), so if you start on the back foot, it's hard to catch up. This is bad for a lot of reasons. It's discriminatory (and arguably illegal, since it must have a "disparate impact" on people over 40). It also shapes the sort of research people do. It encourages trainees to work on established projects in established labs, which promotes orthdoxy and thwarts the idea of training people for careers as independent investigators. It rewards choosing techniques that are "safe" and fast-moving.

btrettel 4y ago
> You'll find tons of grants--and even jobs--that are time-gated: you must be within k years of your PhD, where k is pretty small (1, 2, maybe 5). I finished my PhD in 2020. The research job market was terrible back then, and I'm getting close to the 2 year mark where I'll age out of a lot of opportunities. These rules are going to prevent a lot of people from getting a job in science, and there's nothing they can do about it. Fortunately, in the case of many jobs, I think the time-since-PhD requirement is often boilerplate that is not enforced.
- a_bonobo 4y ago
  In many places the time-since-PhD is also relevant to opportunity, so if you are 5 years post-PhD but you were unemployed for 2 years or outside academia, you count as 3 years post-PhD.

a_bonobo 4y ago

Yes, there is lots of ageism. If you don't have a Professorship in your 40s you're out, you'll rarely get a position. I've seen rare cases, but then you'd have to be really successful in your non-academic job - for example, upper levels of NGOs get recruited for highly visible professorships around NGOs, or business people get recruited for 'start up' professorships. These positions are usually 'handcrafted' for the business-person. But there's nothing below that, people won't jump into a mid-level academic career, those positions are full of 'regular' academics. Not just publications, but other reasons too - someone in their 40s has family and is not willing to work brutal hours and weekends required in many research labs, which someone in their 20s is more likely to accept. Of course it's worse if you're a mother.