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Sikhs [0] are humans, and presumably have the same human nature everyone in this thread shares. If the parent contends that what the Sikhs [0] do is a "commune"

Sikhs [0] are humans, and presumably have the same human nature everyone in this thread shares. If the parent contends that what the Sikhs [0] do is a "commune", then the facticity of their continued success shows that "communes" do not always fail. If what the Sikhs do is not a "commune", then the parent has set up and defeated a strawman unrelated to the example set by Sikhs [0]. Which is it? As the facticity of Sikh [0] food distribution is not at issue[1], it's obvious that organizing this work based on altruism actually does work, and altruism at this scale is possible. The parent's emotional opposition to the concept has led them to make, and now defend, unrelated claims -- and ignore the reality on the ground. No one, beyond the parent themselves, brought up communes, forcible or otherwise. Even if this were relevant, the Sikhs [0] do not force anyone to participate in or accept their voluntary food distribution, so I'm at a total loss as to why any of this was brought up at all -- unless the parent is actually trying to advance an ideological position, which seems to be that cooperation doesn't work at scale [1]. Oops, I mean a slightly larger scale [2]. Perhaps that's true in whatever culture the parent grew up in, but as Sikhs [0] prove, it's obviously not a human universal. Perhaps the parent doesn't consider Sikhs human? What a repulsive argumentative style. [0] via langars [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31150154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31150154 <- in which it's suggested that since Sikhs [0] do not currently feed the entirety of their home country, this demonstrates that their approach cannot be scaled up any further [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31151819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31151819 <- history shows that most countries that attempt to feed all their citizens are naturally regime change'd by the CIA, so this one checks out

WalterBright 5y ago
> entirety I never said entirety. If you want to disagree with me, fine, but please don't add extra words that change the meaning. The Langar was proposed as a model for society. Shall we visit the numbers? 50,000 meals served per day, 1,380,000,000 people. 4,140,000,000 meals needed per day if it was a societal model. I estimate 2,000 volunteers are needed to do the 50,000 meals. Langar has been around for 400 years. Out of 1,380,000,000 they can only muster 2,000 volunteers. Does that sound workable as a model for society? It doesn't to me. The Langar relies on donations, too. I.e. whether it is a commune or not, it is not able to support itself. As for some American examples, there's Woodstock, which subsisted on donated food, medical attention, etc. That lasted for three days, then the people left the field completely carpeted in trash, left it for others to clean up. There was the summer of love in San Francisco, in 1969, which operated on give what you can, take what you need. It collapsed after 3 months, as too many people took and too few gave. > Perhaps the parent doesn't consider Sikhs human? What a repulsive argumentative style. That's your strawman.
- revolvingocelot 5y ago
  >The Langar was proposed as a model for society The Langar was proposed as an example of a societal feature that could be amplified by automation. The parent is putting words into 'TaylorAlexander's mouth, but we all can just fucking read his comment. [0] The temerity of the parent, in blithely accusing me of "add[ing] extra words that change the meaning", given how they butcher the claim that started this fucking subthread, is absolutely repulsive. I can dismiss the rest of the parent's argumentation with the ease with which they dismissed mine, namely >Sikhs [0] are humans, and presumably have the same human nature everyone in this thread shares. If the parent contends that what the Sikhs [0] do is a "commune", then the facticity of their continued success shows that "communes" do not always fail. If what the Sikhs do is not a "commune", then the parent has set up and defeated a strawman unrelated to the example set by Sikhs [0]. Which is it? The refusal to actually address anything (is the langar a commune? Does whatever it is work, or not? Are Sikhs governed by human nature or not?) is breezily elided, in favour of 'Merican counterexamples. Who cares that the langar is a small-scale example of what the parent literally claimed was impossible and beyond the human spirit, and why should the parent address anything anyone actually says? It's bananas that 'TaylorAlexander began by citing the tradition of the langars to facilitate the idea that this sort of arrangement was possible -- which was gainsaid by the parent -- and I am now reading what appears to be the grudging acceptance of the reality of that possibility now used to suggest that no greater implementation is possible. It's one thing to Just Want To Be Right, but quite another to dress it up in rationalization and shenanigans on display here. >> Perhaps the parent doesn't consider Sikhs human? What a repulsive argumentative style. >That's your strawman. I note that the parent still doesn't bother to elaborate here. There's no acknowledgement that the parent made ridiculous counterfactual claims ignoring the actual realities of langyar generosity, or whether they were communes, or whether they were operated by humans, and is now wholehearted accepting it in the name of Being Right -- there's just the satisfaction of a good reversal. Well, enjoy the goalposts, wherever you may find them; I no longer wish to play Calvinball. You "win"; a better world is not possible, certainly not while having this sort of "discussion". [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31146511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31146511
  - WalterBright 5y ago

WalterBright 5y ago

> entirety I never said entirety. If you want to disagree with me, fine, but please don't add extra words that change the meaning. The Langar was proposed as a model for society. Shall we visit the numbers? 50,000 meals served per day, 1,380,000,000 people. 4,140,000,000 meals needed per day if it was a societal model. I estimate 2,000 volunteers are needed to do the 50,000 meals. Langar has been around for 400 years. Out of 1,380,000,000 they can only muster 2,000 volunteers. Does that sound workable as a model for society? It doesn't to me. The Langar relies on donations, too. I.e. whether it is a commune or not, it is not able to support itself. As for some American examples, there's Woodstock, which subsisted on donated food, medical attention, etc. That lasted for three days, then the people left the field completely carpeted in trash, left it for others to clean up. There was the summer of love in San Francisco, in 1969, which operated on give what you can, take what you need. It collapsed after 3 months, as too many people took and too few gave. > Perhaps the parent doesn't consider Sikhs human? What a repulsive argumentative style. That's your strawman.

revolvingocelot 5y ago
>The Langar was proposed as a model for society The Langar was proposed as an example of a societal feature that could be amplified by automation. The parent is putting words into 'TaylorAlexander's mouth, but we all can just fucking read his comment. [0] The temerity of the parent, in blithely accusing me of "add[ing] extra words that change the meaning", given how they butcher the claim that started this fucking subthread, is absolutely repulsive. I can dismiss the rest of the parent's argumentation with the ease with which they dismissed mine, namely >Sikhs [0] are humans, and presumably have the same human nature everyone in this thread shares. If the parent contends that what the Sikhs [0] do is a "commune", then the facticity of their continued success shows that "communes" do not always fail. If what the Sikhs do is not a "commune", then the parent has set up and defeated a strawman unrelated to the example set by Sikhs [0]. Which is it? The refusal to actually address anything (is the langar a commune? Does whatever it is work, or not? Are Sikhs governed by human nature or not?) is breezily elided, in favour of 'Merican counterexamples. Who cares that the langar is a small-scale example of what the parent literally claimed was impossible and beyond the human spirit, and why should the parent address anything anyone actually says? It's bananas that 'TaylorAlexander began by citing the tradition of the langars to facilitate the idea that this sort of arrangement was possible -- which was gainsaid by the parent -- and I am now reading what appears to be the grudging acceptance of the reality of that possibility now used to suggest that no greater implementation is possible. It's one thing to Just Want To Be Right, but quite another to dress it up in rationalization and shenanigans on display here. >> Perhaps the parent doesn't consider Sikhs human? What a repulsive argumentative style. >That's your strawman. I note that the parent still doesn't bother to elaborate here. There's no acknowledgement that the parent made ridiculous counterfactual claims ignoring the actual realities of langyar generosity, or whether they were communes, or whether they were operated by humans, and is now wholehearted accepting it in the name of Being Right -- there's just the satisfaction of a good reversal. Well, enjoy the goalposts, wherever you may find them; I no longer wish to play Calvinball. You "win"; a better world is not possible, certainly not while having this sort of "discussion". [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31146511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31146511
- WalterBright 5y ago