8 ms·

Hot take: Most of hate for Elon is because he is not your traditional progressive leader. He exudes libertarian, progressive and conservative values depending o

Hot take: Most of hate for Elon is because he is not your traditional progressive leader. He exudes libertarian, progressive and conservative values depending on the context and gets to the bottom of truth. He does not care about political correctness which rubs progressives hard and deep. That’s the naked truth. You can spin it this way or that way; none of the reasons I’ve heard make deeply convincing arguments. It’s basically 100% political.

qzx_pierri 5y ago
- the_only_law 5y ago
  Oh it was objective? GP must be a mind reader to objectively know the intent behind “most” of the controversy.
nkozyra 5y ago
> He exudes libertarian, progressive and conservative values depending on the context and gets to the bottom of truth. This is a platitude. He seemingly has no fundamental moral compass, his beliefs are almost always entirely self-serving, which people often interpret as "libertarian." No single person is 100% left/right/whatever. If you don't openly say what you are it leads things open to interpretation, and people seemingly paint whatever picture they like on Musk.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  I've heard his message for a decade or more. He has made sure his moral compass is heard loud and clear and it is always like this: * Make a better tomorrow * Solve humanities most pressing problems * Make humanity a multi-planetary species
  - nkozyra 5y ago
    First two are slogans, and I'm not sure the last one is necessarily a moral goal. I have no issue with this guy, but it's odd to me the way people use him as a blank canvas and fill in all the blanks. Nobody would take any other tech CEO's "make a better tomorrow" directive seriously, so why his?
    - bengale 5y ago
      It's an interesting technique that you can see used in books for young adults, they leave the protagonist fairly blank in many regards so that you can essentially paint yourself in there, or fill in the blanks with what you wish was there. It probably explains why he attracts the type of people he does and why he has the sort of following he does.
    - systemvoltage 5y ago
      Please note that I am not condoning or denying the support for his moral values, just noting my observations from what I've heard repeatedly. Most other CEOs speak corporate lingo. Have you heard Satya Nadella or Sundar Pichai speak? It's like their words make a visit to the PR office before leaving his mouth.
      - McLaren_Ferrari 5y ago
        > Most other CEOs speak corporate lingo. Have you heard Satya Nadella or Sundar Pichai speak? It's like their words make a visit to the PR office before leaving his mouth. Sure I did. I also use their products every day and so do billions of people ranging from Downtown Manhattan to subsaharan Africa. Meme Lord Enron Musk instead managed to get Tesla to account for a paltry 1.3% of all cars globally sold in 2021. He won the lawsuit to obtain control of Tesla in 2002. That's 20 years. 80 quarters. If my math isn't wrong that's 0.01625% per quarter growth rate. Amazing. Oh an there is a small detail that they are rich people's toys. Badly refined rich people's toys I should add. But hey at least he post memes just like all of us plebs /s Look, it's fine if SV wants a politician they can identify with, but at least you guys should come out and say it openly instead of hiding behind the veil of him being a "businessman". Businessmen don't behave like Musk, politicians do. Autocrats to be precise. He's SV Donald Trump.
influx 5y ago
Twitter knows that Trump used them to get elected, and they are scared Elon will unban him. It’s pretty obvious Trump and Alex Jones tweeting again would bring in a lot of eyeballs for better or worse.
scarface74 5y ago
How can you be “libertarian” - ie keep government out of people’s lives and a modern day “conservative” that is all about pushing religious beliefs on people and supporting corrupt law enforcement? But he is not so “Libertarian” that he refuses to accept government subsidies.
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  > a modern day “conservative” that is all about pushing religious beliefs on people and supporting corrupt law enforcement There's no point saying this in a real discussion.
  - 650REDHAIR 5y ago
    Can you highlight the part that isn’t true?
    - scarface74 5y ago
      How many “conservatives” would be in favor of giving police less power, stopping the war on drugs, legalizing weed, letting individual schools decide what to teach, letting individual cities decide not to allow religious institutions in areas zoned for residential properties (they increase traffic), getting rid of tax exemptions for religious institutions, etc? Those are all “Libertarian stances”.
      - robertlagrant 5y ago
        Isn't the tax exemption for separation of church and state reasons? Remove them and religion will require political representation? (Source: vague memory of something from the West Wing.)
        nybble41 5y ago
        If that was the intent then it isn't working very well. If anything, legal equality between religious organizations and similar secular organizations, whether for-profit or non-profit, would entail decreasing the influence of the former on politics. Personally I'd make the opposite change (everyone should be exempt) but religious organizations shouldn't get special treatment just because they're religious. The practice of having special rules which only come into play when religion is involved undermines the separation of church and state; it means that the state is discriminating between citizens on the basis of the presence of absence of a (recognized) religion.
zthrowaway 5y ago
This sums up the whole situation. There’s really nothing else to it.
- smaudet 5y ago
  Only if you ignore the repeated documented issues with how he runs his companies and the numerous flaws with their products... I'm not certain Elon even has a declared political affiliation. What I find absolutely true, is there are a growing number of people seeking to excuse his faults, without evidence I might add, as some kind of political motivated 'religious belief'. It is much easier to ignore criticisms when you turn off your brain and follow some cultish belief, and 'evil liberals jumping out of trees' is quite a popular cult at the moment. Then you can ignore whatever someone says, about anything, in whatever twisted way you can think of to turn it, 'political', or into a 'them versus us' moral goodguys vs badguys argument.
notahacker 5y ago
Most of Elon's questionable behaviour is 100% apolitical, as are most of the criticisms levied at the running of his companies. His actual politics isn't discussed all that much and probably isn't particularly different from your average CEO-in-a-suit, and he's really not exuding nuanced political values and getting to the bottom of truth making joke tweets about selling Tesla or doubling down on calling someone a pedo.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  Both, in person with very good friends that I respect and others online have responded this cliche argument. If you peel the layers of your argument, embedded within it is basically political disagreement. Which is perfectly fine, but I wish people would cut the chase to it. To distill it further: A bottom-up argument would be that "Because Elon has done X, Y and Z; I dispise him". What's going on here is "I disagree with Elon's fundamental values, but let me pick X, Y and Z to make my case".
  - zbentley 5y ago
    Without weighing in on the broader issue, the two options you present are a distinction without a difference. If someone's actions reflect values that are reprehensible to you, you dislike/disagree with that person. If you disagree with someone's values, you arrive at that disagreement by noticing actions they take which represent those values. Cherry-picking examples that don't accurately reflect someone's values is a common problem, but that doesn't seem like what you're describing. "Values" aren't some abstract thing; they're only visible through actions. Saying things is an action like any other (an unusually significant and/or representative one if you are a public figure).
    - systemvoltage 5y ago
      Good response. Rephrasing my statement: What's going on here is "I disagree with Elon's fundamental values, but let me pick X, Y and Z to make my case and ignore his accomplishments, almost impossible achievements and world of good he has done for the planet, humanity more broadly." So, it doesn't hold water IMO. Future generations will look at HN discussions (if they're perverse) and exclaim "They really argued about a rude pedo tweet vs. making our species multi-planetary. Boy,..oh boy."
McLaren_Ferrari 5y ago
Elon Musk's sole political opinion is to further the clout, the cult and the wallet of Elon Musk. > He exudes libertarian, progressive and conservative values depending on the context The context is whatever fits his self interest, wallet or ego in that specific moment in time. People on this board like to proud themselves of how smart they are, it turns out IQ doesn't matter that much in such situations. You just can't measure street smarts and the ability to call out cults and snake-oil salesmen.
the_only_law 5y ago
No there are plenty of much more conservative leaders I don’t even think about because they aren’t 50 year old men trying to shitpost like teenagers on the internet.
- yucky 5y ago
  So your concern is he might influence too many people with wrongthink?
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    Cute projection, but neither me nor GP mentioned anything about concern.
roguecoder 5y ago
The hate he gets is mostly because he's bad at being a CEO. He is a classical robber baron from the turn of the 20th century. His products are poorly made, he churns out vaporware like nobody else, he doesn't seem bothered by lying, he ignores the laws that bind someone in his position, and no one holds him to account because if a journalist asks him a question he doesn't like he blacklists their organization. His companies are badly run because he prioritizes his own ego over learning the domains he is working in. He risked worker safety because he doesn't like the color yellow. He doesn't care about the people who work for him: the California Sheriff's office had to lock his factory doors when covid was rampaging. He exploits nerd-joy to avoid having to provide safe, supportive, constructive environments that actually produce good software. If more people were like him, the world would be a worse place for all the rest of us. I don't believe any of that is "conservative". Aside from his drug use & exploitation of workers, I'm not sure what of it is "libertarian". And "progressive"?

qzx_pierri 5y ago

the_only_law 5y ago
Oh it was objective? GP must be a mind reader to objectively know the intent behind “most” of the controversy.

nkozyra 5y ago

> He exudes libertarian, progressive and conservative values depending on the context and gets to the bottom of truth. This is a platitude. He seemingly has no fundamental moral compass, his beliefs are almost always entirely self-serving, which people often interpret as "libertarian." No single person is 100% left/right/whatever. If you don't openly say what you are it leads things open to interpretation, and people seemingly paint whatever picture they like on Musk.

systemvoltage 5y ago
I've heard his message for a decade or more. He has made sure his moral compass is heard loud and clear and it is always like this: * Make a better tomorrow * Solve humanities most pressing problems * Make humanity a multi-planetary species
- nkozyra 5y ago
  First two are slogans, and I'm not sure the last one is necessarily a moral goal. I have no issue with this guy, but it's odd to me the way people use him as a blank canvas and fill in all the blanks. Nobody would take any other tech CEO's "make a better tomorrow" directive seriously, so why his?
  - bengale 5y ago
    It's an interesting technique that you can see used in books for young adults, they leave the protagonist fairly blank in many regards so that you can essentially paint yourself in there, or fill in the blanks with what you wish was there. It probably explains why he attracts the type of people he does and why he has the sort of following he does.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    Please note that I am not condoning or denying the support for his moral values, just noting my observations from what I've heard repeatedly. Most other CEOs speak corporate lingo. Have you heard Satya Nadella or Sundar Pichai speak? It's like their words make a visit to the PR office before leaving his mouth.
    - McLaren_Ferrari 5y ago
      > Most other CEOs speak corporate lingo. Have you heard Satya Nadella or Sundar Pichai speak? It's like their words make a visit to the PR office before leaving his mouth. Sure I did. I also use their products every day and so do billions of people ranging from Downtown Manhattan to subsaharan Africa. Meme Lord Enron Musk instead managed to get Tesla to account for a paltry 1.3% of all cars globally sold in 2021. He won the lawsuit to obtain control of Tesla in 2002. That's 20 years. 80 quarters. If my math isn't wrong that's 0.01625% per quarter growth rate. Amazing. Oh an there is a small detail that they are rich people's toys. Badly refined rich people's toys I should add. But hey at least he post memes just like all of us plebs /s Look, it's fine if SV wants a politician they can identify with, but at least you guys should come out and say it openly instead of hiding behind the veil of him being a "businessman". Businessmen don't behave like Musk, politicians do. Autocrats to be precise. He's SV Donald Trump.

influx 5y ago

Twitter knows that Trump used them to get elected, and they are scared Elon will unban him. It’s pretty obvious Trump and Alex Jones tweeting again would bring in a lot of eyeballs for better or worse.

scarface74 5y ago

How can you be “libertarian” - ie keep government out of people’s lives and a modern day “conservative” that is all about pushing religious beliefs on people and supporting corrupt law enforcement? But he is not so “Libertarian” that he refuses to accept government subsidies.

robertlagrant 5y ago
> a modern day “conservative” that is all about pushing religious beliefs on people and supporting corrupt law enforcement There's no point saying this in a real discussion.
- 650REDHAIR 5y ago
  Can you highlight the part that isn’t true?
  - scarface74 5y ago
    How many “conservatives” would be in favor of giving police less power, stopping the war on drugs, legalizing weed, letting individual schools decide what to teach, letting individual cities decide not to allow religious institutions in areas zoned for residential properties (they increase traffic), getting rid of tax exemptions for religious institutions, etc? Those are all “Libertarian stances”.
    - robertlagrant 5y ago
      Isn't the tax exemption for separation of church and state reasons? Remove them and religion will require political representation? (Source: vague memory of something from the West Wing.)
      - nybble41 5y ago
        If that was the intent then it isn't working very well. If anything, legal equality between religious organizations and similar secular organizations, whether for-profit or non-profit, would entail decreasing the influence of the former on politics. Personally I'd make the opposite change (everyone should be exempt) but religious organizations shouldn't get special treatment just because they're religious. The practice of having special rules which only come into play when religion is involved undermines the separation of church and state; it means that the state is discriminating between citizens on the basis of the presence of absence of a (recognized) religion.

zthrowaway 5y ago

This sums up the whole situation. There’s really nothing else to it.

smaudet 5y ago
Only if you ignore the repeated documented issues with how he runs his companies and the numerous flaws with their products... I'm not certain Elon even has a declared political affiliation. What I find absolutely true, is there are a growing number of people seeking to excuse his faults, without evidence I might add, as some kind of political motivated 'religious belief'. It is much easier to ignore criticisms when you turn off your brain and follow some cultish belief, and 'evil liberals jumping out of trees' is quite a popular cult at the moment. Then you can ignore whatever someone says, about anything, in whatever twisted way you can think of to turn it, 'political', or into a 'them versus us' moral goodguys vs badguys argument.

notahacker 5y ago

Most of Elon's questionable behaviour is 100% apolitical, as are most of the criticisms levied at the running of his companies. His actual politics isn't discussed all that much and probably isn't particularly different from your average CEO-in-a-suit, and he's really not exuding nuanced political values and getting to the bottom of truth making joke tweets about selling Tesla or doubling down on calling someone a pedo.

systemvoltage 5y ago
Both, in person with very good friends that I respect and others online have responded this cliche argument. If you peel the layers of your argument, embedded within it is basically political disagreement. Which is perfectly fine, but I wish people would cut the chase to it. To distill it further: A bottom-up argument would be that "Because Elon has done X, Y and Z; I dispise him". What's going on here is "I disagree with Elon's fundamental values, but let me pick X, Y and Z to make my case".
- zbentley 5y ago
  Without weighing in on the broader issue, the two options you present are a distinction without a difference. If someone's actions reflect values that are reprehensible to you, you dislike/disagree with that person. If you disagree with someone's values, you arrive at that disagreement by noticing actions they take which represent those values. Cherry-picking examples that don't accurately reflect someone's values is a common problem, but that doesn't seem like what you're describing. "Values" aren't some abstract thing; they're only visible through actions. Saying things is an action like any other (an unusually significant and/or representative one if you are a public figure).
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    Good response. Rephrasing my statement: What's going on here is "I disagree with Elon's fundamental values, but let me pick X, Y and Z to make my case and ignore his accomplishments, almost impossible achievements and world of good he has done for the planet, humanity more broadly." So, it doesn't hold water IMO. Future generations will look at HN discussions (if they're perverse) and exclaim "They really argued about a rude pedo tweet vs. making our species multi-planetary. Boy,..oh boy."

McLaren_Ferrari 5y ago

Elon Musk's sole political opinion is to further the clout, the cult and the wallet of Elon Musk. > He exudes libertarian, progressive and conservative values depending on the context The context is whatever fits his self interest, wallet or ego in that specific moment in time. People on this board like to proud themselves of how smart they are, it turns out IQ doesn't matter that much in such situations. You just can't measure street smarts and the ability to call out cults and snake-oil salesmen.

the_only_law 5y ago

No there are plenty of much more conservative leaders I don’t even think about because they aren’t 50 year old men trying to shitpost like teenagers on the internet.

yucky 5y ago
So your concern is he might influence too many people with wrongthink?
- the_only_law 5y ago
  Cute projection, but neither me nor GP mentioned anything about concern.

roguecoder 5y ago

The hate he gets is mostly because he's bad at being a CEO. He is a classical robber baron from the turn of the 20th century. His products are poorly made, he churns out vaporware like nobody else, he doesn't seem bothered by lying, he ignores the laws that bind someone in his position, and no one holds him to account because if a journalist asks him a question he doesn't like he blacklists their organization. His companies are badly run because he prioritizes his own ego over learning the domains he is working in. He risked worker safety because he doesn't like the color yellow. He doesn't care about the people who work for him: the California Sheriff's office had to lock his factory doors when covid was rampaging. He exploits nerd-joy to avoid having to provide safe, supportive, constructive environments that actually produce good software. If more people were like him, the world would be a worse place for all the rest of us. I don't believe any of that is "conservative". Aside from his drug use & exploitation of workers, I'm not sure what of it is "libertarian". And "progressive"?