6 ms·

As a hiring manager for a tech startup, I find resumes useful as a filter. There is a class of applicants who produce 3-4 page resumes filled with tedious deta

As a hiring manager for a tech startup, I find resumes useful as a filter. There is a class of applicants who produce 3-4 page resumes filled with tedious details, with every technology they ever used bolded, and turgid prose describing internal software projects as if they should be common knowledge. It takes me probably 15 seconds to move on to the next candidate if I see one of those. The next thing I filter on is choice of employers. If I see health insurer, big insurance, blah fortune 500 firm, government contractor, ... over and over again, then unless there's something in the first half of the first page of the resume that otherwise catches my eye, that resume is also going in the discard pile after 30 seconds. Finally I'll scan for interesting projects. I generally want to find people who have done more than just CRUD UIs, and show some passion about the technology they've built and worked with. For somebody who makes it past this point, I'll have spent max 60 seconds with their resume. I then customize and send the message in the ATS and invite the applicant to check out the company and job posting.

htkibar 5y ago
This is horrifying to read. So much bias...
- smallerfish 5y ago
  Tell me one you find horrifying and I'll explain the rationale for doing it.
  - tqi 5y ago
    What kind of projects are the people you hire working on, and is it more than just CRUD UIs?
  - ensignavenger 5y ago
    The Fortune 500 one is a bit disconcerting. I know there are a lot of Fortune 500 developers that would not fit well in a startup, but there are plenty of interesting projects within many Fortune 500s where you would find great developers who would be great startup employees. You do say that you look for something else that catches your eye... but its hard to know what that may be and is probably a lot of chance. You also state that you want to see "passion" for the technology they have used. I don't really know how to put that in a resume. I have a lot of passion for most of the tech I use- I think that would show within minutes during a conversation or interview. But I'm not confidant my resume really communicates it. Putting "I Love Python!!!" in my resume seems a bit over the top...
    - smallerfish 5y ago
      The fortune 500 one I qualified (as I mentioned to a couple other people who objected to this.) I understand why it's disconcerting, but in my position (small startup, small team, need to not waste 3-6 months on a bad hire) I need to increase my chances for a successful hire. Lots of bigcorp devs are used to having everything laid out for them. Early stage startups are unlikely to give the same structure. Passion for tech - you are right that this is hard to boil down to a formula. I'm looking for people who exhibit signals like (for example) they read HN, have interests in learning languages beyond the ones they're comfortable in, have maybe messed around a little with hardware, were in technology clubs in high school or college, learned programming as a kid, have a hobby project, etc. It's not so much about the hours that people will put in, but rather their engagement / pride-in-work / creativity / ability to propose alternate-solutions, all of which are good things to have, and are easy to qualify for with "enjoys technology."
      - ensignavenger 5y ago
        At least at my current job at a "boring" Fortune 500, we don't work that way at all. I'm sure there are plenty that do though. I guess if you are getting enough hires using your current system, there is certainly no reason to change it. I suppose I should consider a way to indicate the I read Hacker News on my resume :) Thanks for responding, I may be able to improve my resume some by considering how to show more of those things. Right now, I focus a lot on Python in my resume, because that is my primary language of expertise and what I use every day. But I am very interested in Rust and various functional languages in general too.
  - quanticle 5y ago
    I generally want to find people who have done more than just CRUD UIs, and show some passion about the technology they've built and worked with. CRUD stands for Create, Read, Update, Delete. Isn't every UI, at some level, a CRUD UI? A wiki is a CRUD UI. A recipe tracker is a CRUD UI. A custom CMS for a community organization is a CRUD UI. A custom web forum is a CRUD UI. Facebook is a CRUD UI. Someone could reimplement Mediawiki, and you'd reject them because "it's just a CRUD UI?"
- woodweb 5y ago
  What is so horrifying? He's hiring startup developers who need self-direction. Look like his rationale is if you can't speak high level and you can't resist over-engineering solutions; it isn't going to work out. That saves everyone time and sounds reasonable to me.
  - Cd00d 5y ago
    He's flat out rejecting people for corporate experience. You don't know the reasons people take jobs or why they're looking for a change.
    - smallerfish 5y ago
      I qualified that by "over and over again" and "first half of first page". If you're switching from nothing but bigcorps to startups, you need to give me something on the resume to make me think that you can adapt to the cultural change.
  - em-bee 5y ago
    it also depends on the companies. where i am now, big corporations work their engineers to exhaustion and teach them a very competitive attitude. that's not something i want in my small company. i need cooperation and mutual support, where developers back each other up and not try to gain favors with their manager at the expense of their teammates.
- beej71 5y ago
  I think the only really uncommon thing here is that they're spending a full 15 seconds per resume. :) When I put together a resume, I figure I have about 3 seconds to get them to decide to continue reading the resume. So I do my best to put in whatever it takes to accomplish that (within the bounds of truth). No one reads a resume straight through; they skim for the highlights they want to see. The more skimming passes you get them to make over your resume because you've kept their interest up, the more likely the interview. And if you're thinking that a resume is a poor format for getting this job done, you're right. :)
  - Cd00d 5y ago
    Why don't you have a recruiter paring down the number of resumes dramatically so that you can actually give each one that passes that review adequate reading?
    - recursive 5y ago
      1. Recruiters are expensive. 2. It's hard to find a recruiter who doesn't increase your incoming resume volume without a corresponding increase on quality or fit. As far as I can tell recruitment has settled into a stable equilibrium of being a volume game.
- throwaway675309 5y ago
  Everyone is biased, they just happen to be a little bit more upfront about it. Frankly, I like that not everyone is conforming to the exact same hiring metrics. As somebody who's built dozens of personal projects (a few of which I've been able to monetize), this would have been precisely the kind of hiring manager that a younger version of me would have liked to see.
astura 5y ago
>If I see health insurer, big insurance, blah fortune 500 firm, government contractor, ... over and over again That's where 95% of the software jobs are. Where are people supposed to work if not the places that employ the majority of software engineers?
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  Not to mention there's a regional bias here. There are plenty places around the continent that just don't have many cool "startup" type jobs. (Or if they do there's a feeding frenzy for them because everything else in the area is insurance/finance, etc.)
  - smallerfish 5y ago
    I'm aware of that, and have done a lot of hiring from the midwest, fwiw. I've been in a position where I don't have a ton of time for mentoring, so I tend to hire senior engineers who are used to running with looser requirements than they may get from a bigcorp, and don't mind juggling a main project with a small backlog of cleanup or bugfixes. I learned this filter after not doing it, and having candidates used to a more structured environment flail. That said, like I mentioned originally, if you can demonstrate in your resume (perhaps even with a "What I'm looking for" section) that you have the skills necessary to thrive, I'll overlook this point. There are simply too many candidates to give everybody a fair chance, and a good number of candidates left over post-filters who will require fewer interviews to narrow down to a hire. Resumes are about marketing yourself to get to the initial screening call so that you can make your case that you are qualified. It sucks, but if you haven't been dealt the lucky cards and you want to break into startups, I think it's probably useful to know the filtering that you're up against.
denton-scratch 5y ago
> 3-4 page resumes That's way too much, even for a long career. Two pages is enough. The more resume there is, the more bullshit you have to read. The career history part should be a list of job-titles and dates, with a brief description of each role, noting any salient achievements. Many recruiters will set aside any resume longer than two pages.
- smallerfish 5y ago
  I once had a candidate submit a 20 page(!) resume. They were so full of themselves. That one I actually did spend 5 minutes with to see what they found so fascinating about their history, but it was otherwise an instant reject.
  - astura 5y ago
    Was it this guy? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_Is_Nothing_(video_r%C3%A9sum%C3%A9) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_Is_Nothing_(video_r...
  - Cd00d 5y ago
    That may be a cultural/experiential difference. You may not be familiar with CVs as opposed to resumes.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    A 20-page resume bespeaks someone inexperienced in job applications. One of the important skills I would be looking for in a recruit would be the ability to express themselves clearly, concisely, and persuasively. Clarity and conciseness are marks of the ability to think. Persuasiveness is actually something that makes me suspicious, but in many jobs the ability to persuade others is an asset (leadership positions, for example). So YMMV. I've always struggled with conciseness; I'm in love with the sound of my own voice.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    In some industries (or academia) a 20 page resume listing every project, publication, patent, etc. is considered normal and desirable. If could be that case.
onion2k 5y ago
I generally want to find people who have done more than just CRUD UIs.. FWIW I could describe my current role as "Building a cash management application to track $500m+ revenue for a global ethical cosmetics organisation" on my resume, which is 100% true, but really it's a React app with about a dozen pages of fairly simple CRUD actions. What the reality of the app is and how someone describes it on their resume are two very different things.
sys_64738 5y ago
I spent 30 seconds reading your message here and another 30 seconds in this response. You sound like a plain awful manager.

htkibar 5y ago

This is horrifying to read. So much bias...

smallerfish 5y ago
Tell me one you find horrifying and I'll explain the rationale for doing it.
- tqi 5y ago
  What kind of projects are the people you hire working on, and is it more than just CRUD UIs?
- ensignavenger 5y ago
  The Fortune 500 one is a bit disconcerting. I know there are a lot of Fortune 500 developers that would not fit well in a startup, but there are plenty of interesting projects within many Fortune 500s where you would find great developers who would be great startup employees. You do say that you look for something else that catches your eye... but its hard to know what that may be and is probably a lot of chance. You also state that you want to see "passion" for the technology they have used. I don't really know how to put that in a resume. I have a lot of passion for most of the tech I use- I think that would show within minutes during a conversation or interview. But I'm not confidant my resume really communicates it. Putting "I Love Python!!!" in my resume seems a bit over the top...
  - smallerfish 5y ago
    The fortune 500 one I qualified (as I mentioned to a couple other people who objected to this.) I understand why it's disconcerting, but in my position (small startup, small team, need to not waste 3-6 months on a bad hire) I need to increase my chances for a successful hire. Lots of bigcorp devs are used to having everything laid out for them. Early stage startups are unlikely to give the same structure. Passion for tech - you are right that this is hard to boil down to a formula. I'm looking for people who exhibit signals like (for example) they read HN, have interests in learning languages beyond the ones they're comfortable in, have maybe messed around a little with hardware, were in technology clubs in high school or college, learned programming as a kid, have a hobby project, etc. It's not so much about the hours that people will put in, but rather their engagement / pride-in-work / creativity / ability to propose alternate-solutions, all of which are good things to have, and are easy to qualify for with "enjoys technology."
    - ensignavenger 5y ago
      At least at my current job at a "boring" Fortune 500, we don't work that way at all. I'm sure there are plenty that do though. I guess if you are getting enough hires using your current system, there is certainly no reason to change it. I suppose I should consider a way to indicate the I read Hacker News on my resume :) Thanks for responding, I may be able to improve my resume some by considering how to show more of those things. Right now, I focus a lot on Python in my resume, because that is my primary language of expertise and what I use every day. But I am very interested in Rust and various functional languages in general too.
- quanticle 5y ago
  I generally want to find people who have done more than just CRUD UIs, and show some passion about the technology they've built and worked with. CRUD stands for Create, Read, Update, Delete. Isn't every UI, at some level, a CRUD UI? A wiki is a CRUD UI. A recipe tracker is a CRUD UI. A custom CMS for a community organization is a CRUD UI. A custom web forum is a CRUD UI. Facebook is a CRUD UI. Someone could reimplement Mediawiki, and you'd reject them because "it's just a CRUD UI?"
woodweb 5y ago
What is so horrifying? He's hiring startup developers who need self-direction. Look like his rationale is if you can't speak high level and you can't resist over-engineering solutions; it isn't going to work out. That saves everyone time and sounds reasonable to me.
- Cd00d 5y ago
  He's flat out rejecting people for corporate experience. You don't know the reasons people take jobs or why they're looking for a change.
  - smallerfish 5y ago
    I qualified that by "over and over again" and "first half of first page". If you're switching from nothing but bigcorps to startups, you need to give me something on the resume to make me think that you can adapt to the cultural change.
- em-bee 5y ago
  it also depends on the companies. where i am now, big corporations work their engineers to exhaustion and teach them a very competitive attitude. that's not something i want in my small company. i need cooperation and mutual support, where developers back each other up and not try to gain favors with their manager at the expense of their teammates.
beej71 5y ago
I think the only really uncommon thing here is that they're spending a full 15 seconds per resume. :) When I put together a resume, I figure I have about 3 seconds to get them to decide to continue reading the resume. So I do my best to put in whatever it takes to accomplish that (within the bounds of truth). No one reads a resume straight through; they skim for the highlights they want to see. The more skimming passes you get them to make over your resume because you've kept their interest up, the more likely the interview. And if you're thinking that a resume is a poor format for getting this job done, you're right. :)
- Cd00d 5y ago
  Why don't you have a recruiter paring down the number of resumes dramatically so that you can actually give each one that passes that review adequate reading?
  - recursive 5y ago
    1. Recruiters are expensive. 2. It's hard to find a recruiter who doesn't increase your incoming resume volume without a corresponding increase on quality or fit. As far as I can tell recruitment has settled into a stable equilibrium of being a volume game.
throwaway675309 5y ago
Everyone is biased, they just happen to be a little bit more upfront about it. Frankly, I like that not everyone is conforming to the exact same hiring metrics. As somebody who's built dozens of personal projects (a few of which I've been able to monetize), this would have been precisely the kind of hiring manager that a younger version of me would have liked to see.

astura 5y ago

>If I see health insurer, big insurance, blah fortune 500 firm, government contractor, ... over and over again That's where 95% of the software jobs are. Where are people supposed to work if not the places that employ the majority of software engineers?

cmrdporcupine 5y ago
Not to mention there's a regional bias here. There are plenty places around the continent that just don't have many cool "startup" type jobs. (Or if they do there's a feeding frenzy for them because everything else in the area is insurance/finance, etc.)
- smallerfish 5y ago
  I'm aware of that, and have done a lot of hiring from the midwest, fwiw. I've been in a position where I don't have a ton of time for mentoring, so I tend to hire senior engineers who are used to running with looser requirements than they may get from a bigcorp, and don't mind juggling a main project with a small backlog of cleanup or bugfixes. I learned this filter after not doing it, and having candidates used to a more structured environment flail. That said, like I mentioned originally, if you can demonstrate in your resume (perhaps even with a "What I'm looking for" section) that you have the skills necessary to thrive, I'll overlook this point. There are simply too many candidates to give everybody a fair chance, and a good number of candidates left over post-filters who will require fewer interviews to narrow down to a hire. Resumes are about marketing yourself to get to the initial screening call so that you can make your case that you are qualified. It sucks, but if you haven't been dealt the lucky cards and you want to break into startups, I think it's probably useful to know the filtering that you're up against.

denton-scratch 5y ago

> 3-4 page resumes That's way too much, even for a long career. Two pages is enough. The more resume there is, the more bullshit you have to read. The career history part should be a list of job-titles and dates, with a brief description of each role, noting any salient achievements. Many recruiters will set aside any resume longer than two pages.

smallerfish 5y ago
I once had a candidate submit a 20 page(!) resume. They were so full of themselves. That one I actually did spend 5 minutes with to see what they found so fascinating about their history, but it was otherwise an instant reject.
- astura 5y ago
  Was it this guy? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_Is_Nothing_(video_r%C3%A9sum%C3%A9) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_Is_Nothing_(video_r...
- Cd00d 5y ago
  That may be a cultural/experiential difference. You may not be familiar with CVs as opposed to resumes.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  A 20-page resume bespeaks someone inexperienced in job applications. One of the important skills I would be looking for in a recruit would be the ability to express themselves clearly, concisely, and persuasively. Clarity and conciseness are marks of the ability to think. Persuasiveness is actually something that makes me suspicious, but in many jobs the ability to persuade others is an asset (leadership positions, for example). So YMMV. I've always struggled with conciseness; I'm in love with the sound of my own voice.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  In some industries (or academia) a 20 page resume listing every project, publication, patent, etc. is considered normal and desirable. If could be that case.

onion2k 5y ago

I generally want to find people who have done more than just CRUD UIs.. FWIW I could describe my current role as "Building a cash management application to track $500m+ revenue for a global ethical cosmetics organisation" on my resume, which is 100% true, but really it's a React app with about a dozen pages of fairly simple CRUD actions. What the reality of the app is and how someone describes it on their resume are two very different things.

sys_64738 5y ago

I spent 30 seconds reading your message here and another 30 seconds in this response. You sound like a plain awful manager.