7 ms·

> Not supporting Windows and macOS will likely hurt the adoption of the language. Not among our target audience it won't. > Anyway, is it possible to target b

> Not supporting Windows and macOS will likely hurt the adoption of the language. Not among our target audience it won't. > Anyway, is it possible to target bare-metal with Hare? Is it possible to use it without the standard library? Yes. Here are two kernels written in Hare that don't use the stdlib: https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/helios https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/helios https://git.sr.ht/~yerinalexey/carrot https://git.sr.ht/~yerinalexey/carrot

ed_elliott_asc 4y ago
Who are your target audience?
- minroot 4y ago
  To my thinking, users of open-source operating systems
the_duke 4y ago
The problem here is that focusing on a language can lead to lots of small API design decisions that make it very cumbersome to support other systems later without significant breaking changes. I can appreciate the ideological and practical purity of that decision, but even Linux aficionados need to deploy code to other operating systems to make a living.
- eatonphil 4y ago
  I don't have data to support it but even for Go, a language that does support macOS and Windows, it does not feel like the stdlib is as mature or performant as the Linux version. I don't have numbers for that yet just observations doing simple benchmarks across Linux, macOS and Windows. Some languages are just clearly designed to be used on the server.
  - sealeck 4y ago
    But there's a difference between "it works, but more slowly on <windows or macos> (people's development environments)" and "it doesn't work atoll"
metaltyphoon 4y ago
> Not among our target audience it won't. Yes it will. I have no interest in using Linux as desktop but I do use it for deployments. If there is one trait of major PL is the adoption of the big 3 OSes. This is Hare’s biggest flaw right now.
- pxeger1 4y ago
  Modern web programming is almost always deployed on Unix-like operating systems / Linux. The biggest reason to allow running Hare on Windows/macOS would just be for developers who don't use Linux.
  - metaltyphoon 4y ago
    Correct, which outnumbers the number of developers using Linux only right? Why cut a substantial amount of your possible user base?
    - kup0 4y ago
      Inversely, why not? Why aim for a large user base? That doesn't sound aligned with the ideology behind this language Keeping the scope niche/small seems like a feature to me, not a bug. Let non-FOSS OS users find something else (?) I am personally no FOSS zealot but I can respect a project that has a firm idea of its scope and targeted user base and wishes to stay limited to that Not everything needs to be huge or growth hacked to death
- skybrian 4y ago
  Though I haven't tried it, I understand that some people do development inside a Docker container, so maybe you don't need to run Linux on your desktop? It seems like a trick that's worth learning.
  - metaltyphoon 4y ago
    I'm aware of all these tricks including VSCode devcontainer. It's just a higher celling no matter how you slice it. The solutions with the least amount of resistance tends to win. Look how easy it's to try these. I don't have to set up VMs or even know what make is to do anything. - dotnet: https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download - rust: https://www.rust-lang.org/learn/get-started https://www.rust-lang.org/learn/get-started - go: https://go.dev/dl/ https://go.dev/dl/ If you WANT to be mainstream, you need to go the extra mile.
thrtythreeforty 4y ago
I hope you'll reconsider this in the long term, not because I think Windows/macOS are great (my feelings for them range between "ugh" and abject horror depending on the day). Rather, I think it would be good because it makes a language much more palatable for mainstream adoption if it's possible for programs written to be ported to Windows/macOS. Languages need the positive adoption feedback loop. Rust would not be as mature and stable as it is today if it were relegated to Linux server programming. That said - I can appreciate keeping a small target for the language in the beginning. It allows you to concentrate efforts and achieve an MVP much sooner than you would be able to if you had to deal with Windows BS :)
- ddevault 4y ago
  The language is standardized. I encourage you to write an implementation for any platform you wish, or maintain a fork of our compiler/stdlib for your platform of choice. We're not interested in it upstream, but that does not prevent the community from providing for these use-cases.
  - boardwaalk 4y ago
    Honestly that really kills my interest I have in the language. That’s not realistically going to happen (a reimplementation) or go well (maintaining a fork) with a (frankly) niche language. I suspect the pool of people who develop locally (on Win or Mac, and need something functional if not optimal) and deploy to Linux is not small. Is there a particular reason? io-uring?
    - ddevault 4y ago
      As other commenters alluded to, it's an ideological and practical decision. We simply prefer free software operating systems. We do not care to legitimize nonfree platforms, and we prefer to be able to read (and patch) the code to understand the tools we depend on. If that's a deal-breaker for you, no worries - Hare does not have to appeal to everyone to achieve its goals.
Shadonototra 4y ago
>> Not supporting Windows and macOS will likely hurt the adoption of the language. > Not among our target audience it won't. No gamedev?
- wheelerof4te 4y ago
  You can develop games just fine on Linux.
  - nickitolas 4y ago
    Yes, by targeting wine/proton/win32
    - Shadonototra 4y ago
      that is not what i meant i don't believe in wine/proton, and i find win32 to be trash i don't like it, but windows is the platform, if you want to find players for your game and i believe each platform deserve a native release i'm not a fan of the mindset of having to lower your standard to please whoever got lazy to not support X, Y or Z wine/proton promotes the wrong idea, that everyone shouldn't matter about the platform

ed_elliott_asc 4y ago

Who are your target audience?

minroot 4y ago
To my thinking, users of open-source operating systems

the_duke 4y ago

The problem here is that focusing on a language can lead to lots of small API design decisions that make it very cumbersome to support other systems later without significant breaking changes. I can appreciate the ideological and practical purity of that decision, but even Linux aficionados need to deploy code to other operating systems to make a living.

eatonphil 4y ago
I don't have data to support it but even for Go, a language that does support macOS and Windows, it does not feel like the stdlib is as mature or performant as the Linux version. I don't have numbers for that yet just observations doing simple benchmarks across Linux, macOS and Windows. Some languages are just clearly designed to be used on the server.
- sealeck 4y ago
  But there's a difference between "it works, but more slowly on <windows or macos> (people's development environments)" and "it doesn't work atoll"

metaltyphoon 4y ago

> Not among our target audience it won't. Yes it will. I have no interest in using Linux as desktop but I do use it for deployments. If there is one trait of major PL is the adoption of the big 3 OSes. This is Hare’s biggest flaw right now.

pxeger1 4y ago
Modern web programming is almost always deployed on Unix-like operating systems / Linux. The biggest reason to allow running Hare on Windows/macOS would just be for developers who don't use Linux.
- metaltyphoon 4y ago
  Correct, which outnumbers the number of developers using Linux only right? Why cut a substantial amount of your possible user base?
  - kup0 4y ago
    Inversely, why not? Why aim for a large user base? That doesn't sound aligned with the ideology behind this language Keeping the scope niche/small seems like a feature to me, not a bug. Let non-FOSS OS users find something else (?) I am personally no FOSS zealot but I can respect a project that has a firm idea of its scope and targeted user base and wishes to stay limited to that Not everything needs to be huge or growth hacked to death
skybrian 4y ago
Though I haven't tried it, I understand that some people do development inside a Docker container, so maybe you don't need to run Linux on your desktop? It seems like a trick that's worth learning.
- metaltyphoon 4y ago
  I'm aware of all these tricks including VSCode devcontainer. It's just a higher celling no matter how you slice it. The solutions with the least amount of resistance tends to win. Look how easy it's to try these. I don't have to set up VMs or even know what make is to do anything. - dotnet: https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download - rust: https://www.rust-lang.org/learn/get-started https://www.rust-lang.org/learn/get-started - go: https://go.dev/dl/ https://go.dev/dl/ If you WANT to be mainstream, you need to go the extra mile.

thrtythreeforty 4y ago

I hope you'll reconsider this in the long term, not because I think Windows/macOS are great (my feelings for them range between "ugh" and abject horror depending on the day). Rather, I think it would be good because it makes a language much more palatable for mainstream adoption if it's possible for programs written to be ported to Windows/macOS. Languages need the positive adoption feedback loop. Rust would not be as mature and stable as it is today if it were relegated to Linux server programming. That said - I can appreciate keeping a small target for the language in the beginning. It allows you to concentrate efforts and achieve an MVP much sooner than you would be able to if you had to deal with Windows BS :)

ddevault 4y ago
The language is standardized. I encourage you to write an implementation for any platform you wish, or maintain a fork of our compiler/stdlib for your platform of choice. We're not interested in it upstream, but that does not prevent the community from providing for these use-cases.
- boardwaalk 4y ago
  Honestly that really kills my interest I have in the language. That’s not realistically going to happen (a reimplementation) or go well (maintaining a fork) with a (frankly) niche language. I suspect the pool of people who develop locally (on Win or Mac, and need something functional if not optimal) and deploy to Linux is not small. Is there a particular reason? io-uring?
  - ddevault 4y ago
    As other commenters alluded to, it's an ideological and practical decision. We simply prefer free software operating systems. We do not care to legitimize nonfree platforms, and we prefer to be able to read (and patch) the code to understand the tools we depend on. If that's a deal-breaker for you, no worries - Hare does not have to appeal to everyone to achieve its goals.

Shadonototra 4y ago

>> Not supporting Windows and macOS will likely hurt the adoption of the language. > Not among our target audience it won't. No gamedev?

wheelerof4te 4y ago
You can develop games just fine on Linux.
- nickitolas 4y ago
  Yes, by targeting wine/proton/win32
  - Shadonototra 4y ago
    that is not what i meant i don't believe in wine/proton, and i find win32 to be trash i don't like it, but windows is the platform, if you want to find players for your game and i believe each platform deserve a native release i'm not a fan of the mindset of having to lower your standard to please whoever got lazy to not support X, Y or Z wine/proton promotes the wrong idea, that everyone shouldn't matter about the platform