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But please, do not print on a laser printer. Use an inkjet printer or dot matrix printer. Laser prints have the bad tendency to "unstick" themselves from the pa

by Loic 4y ago

But please, do not print on a laser printer. Use an inkjet printer or dot matrix printer. Laser prints have the bad tendency to "unstick" themselves from the paper, you end up losing everything. "The best long term backup strategy is a string of robust middle term solutions." This was for me the most insightful comment I read (as far as I can remember) on Tim Bray's blog[0] many years ago. [0]: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/

aforwardslash 4y ago
Dot matrix also tends to clear out during the years, specially with more acidic paper (such as recycled ones). Saying this as thousands of pages of my programming-related dot matrix prints slowly fade away :)
bayindirh 4y ago
If you're printing with Inkjet, and you want to use color, make sure that all cartridges are pigmented (which is generally true for HP DesignJet series). Otherwise almost all HP black inks are pigment based, use all-black printouts.
chrisseaton 4y ago
> But please, do not print on a laser printer. My understanding is that until recently the UK was printing laws on vellum, for maximum archival durability... but they printed onto the vellum using a normal laser printer. So it must be pretty durable? A laser printer uses simple carbon, rather than complex inks.
- AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
- hkt 4y ago
  I'd be delighted to learn that all our laws before 2000 had faded from the statute book.. but you're probably right, it seems durable enough.
- lstodd 4y ago
  > A laser printer uses simple carbon No, it uses what's basically a fine plastic powder. By mass it's mostly carbon, yes.
mmcgaha 4y ago
I have seen the issue that you are talking about but I am not sure what causes it. I have 25 year old documents printed with laser printer that have not released from the paper at all yet I have ten year old documents where it happens when I bend the paper. My pet theory is that modern paper is not as good because of the high recycled content but that would obviously take a significant effort to test. Another possibility is that modern printers are the problem but this would be even harder to test. I don't print anything to keep anymore so it doesn't really matter anyway.
- moistly 4y ago
  High quality papers are coated with clay or other material. Perhaps some of these coatings are prone to releasing or otherwise incompatible with toner? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coated_paper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coated_paper
orangepurple 4y ago
> Laser prints have the bad tendency to "unstick" themselves from the paper, you end up losing everything. Have NEVER heard of this
- natpalmer1776 4y ago
  I would imagine that it would be related to regional environmental conditions such as humidity, temperature, air pressure, etc. though I'm no expert on the chemical properties of toner.
- albrewer 4y ago
  It can happen due to various reasons, but the way laser printers work is they electrostatically charge a toner drum, the toner particles "jump" to the right spot, and are then deposited on the paper that has an opposite electric charge. Then the whole thing goes through fuser rollers that "bake" the toner into the paper. If the toner is low quality, the fusion step wasn't hot enough, or the paper and toner are incompatible, you might not get complete adherence of the toner to the paper. This can cause that flaking behavior in the future. The trick is to do your research on the printer and toner to make sure they have a high quality finish. For paper, a heavier than normal printer paper (like 40lb text paper instead of the normal 20 or 28 lb) that has some percentage of cotton in it can last for hundreds of years if you store it in an airtight container.
- novaleaf 4y ago
  I also never had this happen, and conversely find that inkjet fades, and will be totally ruined if it ever becomes damp.
- xyzzy21 4y ago
  I have a TON of old HP LaserJet printouts from the 1980s and 1990s have have done this - if you have them stacked in a box, you find them stuck together and pulling them apart takes the print off with one or the other sheet. I haven't experimented with work arounds but perhaps separating with wax paper or parchment might be helpful.
- erik_seaberg 4y ago
FpUser 4y ago
I have some docs printed in late 80s / early 90s on HP laser. Still pretty much in perfect condition. No "unsticking".
lstodd 4y ago
> Laser prints have the bad tendency to "unstick" themselves from the paper, you end up losing everything. That's bullshit. It's the other way around. Inkjet fades out and gets washed off by a little bit of moisture, while dot-matrix "just" fade out. Don't skimp on toner and paper, don't get it to rot and it'll last centuries.
- kurikuri 4y ago
  It might seem like bullshit for any short-term storage (sub 5 year), but I’ll provide an anecdatum of letters literally unsticking from laser printed paper and instead adhering to the plastic bin they were stored in for 7 years.
  - lstodd 4y ago
    Wrong paper, and/or bad fusor. My stuff printed on HP LJ 4 in late 90s is still as good as new.
atoav 4y ago
Heh of we are going that route why not just laser-engrave it into animal skin?

by Loic 4y ago

aforwardslash 4y ago

Dot matrix also tends to clear out during the years, specially with more acidic paper (such as recycled ones). Saying this as thousands of pages of my programming-related dot matrix prints slowly fade away :)

bayindirh 4y ago

If you're printing with Inkjet, and you want to use color, make sure that all cartridges are pigmented (which is generally true for HP DesignJet series). Otherwise almost all HP black inks are pigment based, use all-black printouts.

chrisseaton 4y ago

> But please, do not print on a laser printer. My understanding is that until recently the UK was printing laws on vellum, for maximum archival durability... but they printed onto the vellum using a normal laser printer. So it must be pretty durable? A laser printer uses simple carbon, rather than complex inks.

AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
hkt 4y ago
I'd be delighted to learn that all our laws before 2000 had faded from the statute book.. but you're probably right, it seems durable enough.
lstodd 4y ago
> A laser printer uses simple carbon No, it uses what's basically a fine plastic powder. By mass it's mostly carbon, yes.

mmcgaha 4y ago

I have seen the issue that you are talking about but I am not sure what causes it. I have 25 year old documents printed with laser printer that have not released from the paper at all yet I have ten year old documents where it happens when I bend the paper. My pet theory is that modern paper is not as good because of the high recycled content but that would obviously take a significant effort to test. Another possibility is that modern printers are the problem but this would be even harder to test. I don't print anything to keep anymore so it doesn't really matter anyway.

moistly 4y ago
High quality papers are coated with clay or other material. Perhaps some of these coatings are prone to releasing or otherwise incompatible with toner? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coated_paper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coated_paper

orangepurple 4y ago

> Laser prints have the bad tendency to "unstick" themselves from the paper, you end up losing everything. Have NEVER heard of this

natpalmer1776 4y ago
I would imagine that it would be related to regional environmental conditions such as humidity, temperature, air pressure, etc. though I'm no expert on the chemical properties of toner.
albrewer 4y ago
It can happen due to various reasons, but the way laser printers work is they electrostatically charge a toner drum, the toner particles "jump" to the right spot, and are then deposited on the paper that has an opposite electric charge. Then the whole thing goes through fuser rollers that "bake" the toner into the paper. If the toner is low quality, the fusion step wasn't hot enough, or the paper and toner are incompatible, you might not get complete adherence of the toner to the paper. This can cause that flaking behavior in the future. The trick is to do your research on the printer and toner to make sure they have a high quality finish. For paper, a heavier than normal printer paper (like 40lb text paper instead of the normal 20 or 28 lb) that has some percentage of cotton in it can last for hundreds of years if you store it in an airtight container.
novaleaf 4y ago
I also never had this happen, and conversely find that inkjet fades, and will be totally ruined if it ever becomes damp.
xyzzy21 4y ago
I have a TON of old HP LaserJet printouts from the 1980s and 1990s have have done this - if you have them stacked in a box, you find them stuck together and pulling them apart takes the print off with one or the other sheet. I haven't experimented with work arounds but perhaps separating with wax paper or parchment might be helpful.
erik_seaberg 4y ago

FpUser 4y ago

I have some docs printed in late 80s / early 90s on HP laser. Still pretty much in perfect condition. No "unsticking".

lstodd 4y ago

> Laser prints have the bad tendency to "unstick" themselves from the paper, you end up losing everything. That's bullshit. It's the other way around. Inkjet fades out and gets washed off by a little bit of moisture, while dot-matrix "just" fade out. Don't skimp on toner and paper, don't get it to rot and it'll last centuries.

kurikuri 4y ago
It might seem like bullshit for any short-term storage (sub 5 year), but I’ll provide an anecdatum of letters literally unsticking from laser printed paper and instead adhering to the plastic bin they were stored in for 7 years.
- lstodd 4y ago
  Wrong paper, and/or bad fusor. My stuff printed on HP LJ 4 in late 90s is still as good as new.

atoav 4y ago

Heh of we are going that route why not just laser-engrave it into animal skin?