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I think so. That's why reality has fractal shapes. Circuit boards look like cities for electrons. Rivers look like arteries in a body. Lightning looks like offs

I think so. That's why reality has fractal shapes. Circuit boards look like cities for electrons. Rivers look like arteries in a body. Lightning looks like offspring lineages. The universe has a few fundamental processes in it that repeat throughout all scales and the process of human development means technology also goes through an evolution.

kuhewa 4y ago
Those example motifs you mention are necessary for complex life but perhaps not sufficient. Maybe necessary isn't the right word, just emergent properties of low level phenomena
- mjburgess 4y ago
  Indeed, people begin by assuming that since programmable computers can approximate many classes of patterns and since computers are amazing therefore everything is just an instance of this class. Were this true, I cannot see why any system wouldn't be a model of any system; ie., alchemy would be possible. What people forget is that "programming" in the alchemical sense requires a star. Once you get specific about what properties and processes actually correspond to the allegdeged "complexities" you're talking about, its obvious that no programmable machine will implement them; as obvious as none will turn lead into gold.
  - irrational 4y ago
    > no programmable machine will implement them; as obvious as none will turn lead into gold Unless we learned how to manipulate matter at an atomic level - construct and deconstruct atoms.
  - Atlas667 4y ago
    I dont think that's where this conversation was going. I believe you got that impression from me mentioning fractals, but even so fractals are only self similar not identical. Maybe the fractal nature of computing is not in the "are we living in a simulation?" Kind, but is in the "we can imitate what we see at a different scale with fundamental units, logic/math, and visual field". In a sense it is a universe within a universe, but that doesn't imply everything is everything. It implies there are many things at different scales that are self similar. Scale still exists and is relevant.
- Atlas667 4y ago
  Yes, i agree. the fact that lightning and tree roots look similar are not enough to explain complex life. But i do think the universe is bound to imitate itself at different scales. How a human is made of cells and societies are made of individual humans. And so i think in that way one can also explain how programming languages go through an evolution with us.
raducu 4y ago
Those look nothing alike, imho. The only thing those things have in common is the human mind percieving them.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  Humans recognizing patterns nature did actually reveal something concrete and applicable. See the Golden Ratio.
  - raducu 4y ago
    The golden ratio is something you can measure. I'm talking about stuff like: reality has fractal shapes -- eeehhh... it kind of doesn't Circuit boards look like cities for electrons -- they look like cities for ants for me. But no, actually they don't look at all like cities, not the most recent smd circuits and there's no living spaces, no suburbia, no parks and so on on circuit boards, nothing like cities. Just roooughly looking like a city for a child, especially all the old stuff with big vacuum tubes and big capacitors. Rivers look like arteries in a body -- no it doesn't look anything like. Arteries are tubes, rivers just go from high to low elevation and all rivers end up in lakes or seas. There's multiple loops, from your heart to your lungs to clear CO2, from the heart to the rest of the body to give O2 and nutrients; then most of the blood returns via capillary to the veins that make the reverse course and some of the fluids go into the lymphatic system. I mean, nothing like rivers. Sure, if you look at a small picture from high above, it might look similar, but so would be trees and branches, roads or a peace of lint from my belly button. Lightning looks like offspring lineages -- again, no, it kind of doesn't.
    - Atlas667 4y ago
      I'm sure you're wrong. I say this about the universe not because i made it up, but because i see the pattern and i recognize a material cause for it. Tree branches and arteries try to complete a similar function. They want to cover an area or volume as much as possible. Circuit boards and cities look alike because they also complete similar functions. Roads/traces serve as a means of transport and buildings/components are places where the transported object undergoes a process, be them electrons or people. Routers and networks also have a topology similar to information propagation in people or societies too because they serve the same function. People/routers are nodes and the info connection is an edge. I'm not saying all of human society can be reduced to a CISCO manual, I'm saying they share similar structures. Offspring lineages and lightning patterns are also similar because of the similarities between evolution and reproduction and finding the path of least resistance. Not all of these structures have to be branching. There are many other kinds. Like how water forms a vortex and galaxies spiral.

kuhewa 4y ago

Those example motifs you mention are necessary for complex life but perhaps not sufficient. Maybe necessary isn't the right word, just emergent properties of low level phenomena

mjburgess 4y ago
Indeed, people begin by assuming that since programmable computers can approximate many classes of patterns and since computers are amazing therefore everything is just an instance of this class. Were this true, I cannot see why any system wouldn't be a model of any system; ie., alchemy would be possible. What people forget is that "programming" in the alchemical sense requires a star. Once you get specific about what properties and processes actually correspond to the allegdeged "complexities" you're talking about, its obvious that no programmable machine will implement them; as obvious as none will turn lead into gold.
- irrational 4y ago
  > no programmable machine will implement them; as obvious as none will turn lead into gold Unless we learned how to manipulate matter at an atomic level - construct and deconstruct atoms.
- Atlas667 4y ago
  I dont think that's where this conversation was going. I believe you got that impression from me mentioning fractals, but even so fractals are only self similar not identical. Maybe the fractal nature of computing is not in the "are we living in a simulation?" Kind, but is in the "we can imitate what we see at a different scale with fundamental units, logic/math, and visual field". In a sense it is a universe within a universe, but that doesn't imply everything is everything. It implies there are many things at different scales that are self similar. Scale still exists and is relevant.
Atlas667 4y ago
Yes, i agree. the fact that lightning and tree roots look similar are not enough to explain complex life. But i do think the universe is bound to imitate itself at different scales. How a human is made of cells and societies are made of individual humans. And so i think in that way one can also explain how programming languages go through an evolution with us.

raducu 4y ago

Those look nothing alike, imho. The only thing those things have in common is the human mind percieving them.

bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
Humans recognizing patterns nature did actually reveal something concrete and applicable. See the Golden Ratio.
- raducu 4y ago
  The golden ratio is something you can measure. I'm talking about stuff like: reality has fractal shapes -- eeehhh... it kind of doesn't Circuit boards look like cities for electrons -- they look like cities for ants for me. But no, actually they don't look at all like cities, not the most recent smd circuits and there's no living spaces, no suburbia, no parks and so on on circuit boards, nothing like cities. Just roooughly looking like a city for a child, especially all the old stuff with big vacuum tubes and big capacitors. Rivers look like arteries in a body -- no it doesn't look anything like. Arteries are tubes, rivers just go from high to low elevation and all rivers end up in lakes or seas. There's multiple loops, from your heart to your lungs to clear CO2, from the heart to the rest of the body to give O2 and nutrients; then most of the blood returns via capillary to the veins that make the reverse course and some of the fluids go into the lymphatic system. I mean, nothing like rivers. Sure, if you look at a small picture from high above, it might look similar, but so would be trees and branches, roads or a peace of lint from my belly button. Lightning looks like offspring lineages -- again, no, it kind of doesn't.
  - Atlas667 4y ago
    I'm sure you're wrong. I say this about the universe not because i made it up, but because i see the pattern and i recognize a material cause for it. Tree branches and arteries try to complete a similar function. They want to cover an area or volume as much as possible. Circuit boards and cities look alike because they also complete similar functions. Roads/traces serve as a means of transport and buildings/components are places where the transported object undergoes a process, be them electrons or people. Routers and networks also have a topology similar to information propagation in people or societies too because they serve the same function. People/routers are nodes and the info connection is an edge. I'm not saying all of human society can be reduced to a CISCO manual, I'm saying they share similar structures. Offspring lineages and lightning patterns are also similar because of the similarities between evolution and reproduction and finding the path of least resistance. Not all of these structures have to be branching. There are many other kinds. Like how water forms a vortex and galaxies spiral.