5 ms·

Thanks for the link! > None of the big sites are using it because it's frequently far more profitable to track people. That doesn't explain it. If the only op

by jsnell 5y ago

Thanks for the link! > None of the big sites are using it because it's frequently far more profitable to track people. That doesn't explain it. If the only options on accessing one of the "big sites" were to see ads and be tracked, or to pay €200 / year and not be, it is pretty obvious that fewer users would opt out of the tracking than now (when it is free). If a consent dialogue that required one more click for refusing than accepting is not legal, how can this be?

tzs 5y ago
One reason that most sites might choose to make their money selling ads over selling subscriptions is that the former is much less of a hassle when it comes to taxes. If your site makes its money selling ads that is most likely only of interest only to the tax authorities where your company is located. It doesn't matter where your site users are located. You advertising income will just be another entry on normal business income taxes. If your site makes its money selling subscriptions, that money is business income on your normal business income taxes but also likely will be subject to sales taxes in the places where your subscribers are located. If you have customers in the EU, you'll need to collect and file quarterly VAT there (the EU has its act together so you only have to register in one country, and file a quarterly report breaking down sales by country, and that one you registered in will deal with distributing the money to the rest). If you have customers in the UK you will have register separately with them, because the morons implementing Brexit failed to arrange to stay in the unified online VAT system of the EU. (Not that you can currently actually register in the UK. We applied for our VAT registration number something like two years ago and they keep saying that HMRC is very busy and will eventually get to it. In the meantime we are suppose to collect and hold UK VAT, but not supposed to call it VAT). If you have customers in the US you might have to deal with sales tax in 45 states. Unlike the EU VAT the rates are not uniform within a given state. You have to deal with different rates in each county, possibly each city, and possibly even in different areas within a city--and tax boundaries do not always line up with zip code boundaries so to do it right you have to collect exact address information for your subscribers.
- jsnell 5y ago
  These companies already make money directly from consumers all across the EU and would have the processes in place. And again, the point isn't even particularly to make money from selling the subscriptions. It's that if it's legitimate to demand either payment or tracking, then it's trivial for companies to force consent to tracking.
ckastner 5y ago
> If a consent dialogue that required one more click for refusing than accepting is not legal, how can this be? In the derstandard.at model, the site is inaccessible (and also does not set any cookies, or perform any other tracking options) until you choose either A or B, so the amount of clicks are the same. > That doesn't explain it. If the only options on accessing one of the "big sites" were to see ads and be tracked, or to pay €200 / year and not be, it is pretty obvious that fewer users would opt out of the tracking than now (when it is free). It's too soon to say as the option only appeared recently, but taken to the extreme, if every single user of Google services opted out of tracking, Google would probably end up with a revenue problem and re-assess the situation.
- jsnell 5y ago
  > In the derstandard.at model, the site is inaccessible (and also does not set any cookies, or perform any other tracking options) until you choose either A or B, so the amount of clicks are the same. The amount of clicks is definitely not the same; choosing to subscribe will certainly require filling in a dozen fields of personal information, provide credit card details, etc. The friction difference between 1 vs. 2 clicks is trivial compared to the friction added by a full subscription flow.
  - ckastner 5y ago
    Perhaps I phrased it poorly; what I meant to emphasize is that the refusal does not take any extra steps. Of course entering a contract, requiring some form of online payment, will take more steps than not entering one.

by jsnell 5y ago

tzs 5y ago

One reason that most sites might choose to make their money selling ads over selling subscriptions is that the former is much less of a hassle when it comes to taxes. If your site makes its money selling ads that is most likely only of interest only to the tax authorities where your company is located. It doesn't matter where your site users are located. You advertising income will just be another entry on normal business income taxes. If your site makes its money selling subscriptions, that money is business income on your normal business income taxes but also likely will be subject to sales taxes in the places where your subscribers are located. If you have customers in the EU, you'll need to collect and file quarterly VAT there (the EU has its act together so you only have to register in one country, and file a quarterly report breaking down sales by country, and that one you registered in will deal with distributing the money to the rest). If you have customers in the UK you will have register separately with them, because the morons implementing Brexit failed to arrange to stay in the unified online VAT system of the EU. (Not that you can currently actually register in the UK. We applied for our VAT registration number something like two years ago and they keep saying that HMRC is very busy and will eventually get to it. In the meantime we are suppose to collect and hold UK VAT, but not supposed to call it VAT). If you have customers in the US you might have to deal with sales tax in 45 states. Unlike the EU VAT the rates are not uniform within a given state. You have to deal with different rates in each county, possibly each city, and possibly even in different areas within a city--and tax boundaries do not always line up with zip code boundaries so to do it right you have to collect exact address information for your subscribers.

jsnell 5y ago
These companies already make money directly from consumers all across the EU and would have the processes in place. And again, the point isn't even particularly to make money from selling the subscriptions. It's that if it's legitimate to demand either payment or tracking, then it's trivial for companies to force consent to tracking.

ckastner 5y ago

> If a consent dialogue that required one more click for refusing than accepting is not legal, how can this be? In the derstandard.at model, the site is inaccessible (and also does not set any cookies, or perform any other tracking options) until you choose either A or B, so the amount of clicks are the same. > That doesn't explain it. If the only options on accessing one of the "big sites" were to see ads and be tracked, or to pay €200 / year and not be, it is pretty obvious that fewer users would opt out of the tracking than now (when it is free). It's too soon to say as the option only appeared recently, but taken to the extreme, if every single user of Google services opted out of tracking, Google would probably end up with a revenue problem and re-assess the situation.

jsnell 5y ago
> In the derstandard.at model, the site is inaccessible (and also does not set any cookies, or perform any other tracking options) until you choose either A or B, so the amount of clicks are the same. The amount of clicks is definitely not the same; choosing to subscribe will certainly require filling in a dozen fields of personal information, provide credit card details, etc. The friction difference between 1 vs. 2 clicks is trivial compared to the friction added by a full subscription flow.
- ckastner 5y ago
  Perhaps I phrased it poorly; what I meant to emphasize is that the refusal does not take any extra steps. Of course entering a contract, requiring some form of online payment, will take more steps than not entering one.