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What a repulsive argumentative style. >>>I also expect that making money is a prime motivator for artists, and also drives the quality of their work. is a muc

What a repulsive argumentative style. >>>I also expect that making money is a prime motivator for artists, and also drives the quality of their work. is a much less hostile claim than >I happen to know some successful artists (you'd recognize their names), and they are very much in it for the big bucks. which could have been made in the initial comment, but then parent wouldn't be able to Other the grandparent for the heretical belief that people can work together at scale. The parent simply knows better. Even when the grandparent cites what Sikh society verifiably does, which is simply a cultural reorganization of existing resources, not a remodel of the human heart, and certainly within the power of much richer European and North American societies as they now stand, let alone what at-scale automation could provide -- it's never addressed because that's ackshually a commune. Which, as the astute reader will learn by reading further, doesn't work, 100% of the time. In fact, they're "anti-ethical". [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31148652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31148652

WalterBright 5y ago
I didn't argue that people cannot work together at scale. My argument, admittedly heavyhanded, is that organizing this work based on altruism does not work. It may work here and there, for a period of time, but it is not sustainable. Organizations that work are ones where people are paid for the work they do, not ones that pay people regardless of the work they do. By the way, anti-ethical does not mean unethical. It means contrary to, in this case, contrary to human nature. I did not write that communes were anti-ethical. I wrote that they were anti-ethical to human nature, meaning they are contrary to human nature. There's nothing unethical about voluntary communes, but there's plenty unethical about forcible ones.
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  The Sikhs have been doing their thing for 400 years.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I presume you mean the Langar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_(Sikhism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_(Sikhism) As I noted in another post here, while an admirable endeavor, it has not managed to serve free meals to a significant percentage of India's population. There are apparently limits to selfless volunteerism.
    - fmmlp 4y ago
      I don't think they purpose is feeding the whole India population.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > My argument, admittedly heavyhanded, is that organizing this work based on altruism does not work. It may work here and there, for a period of time For the special case of intellectual creation, which has no marginal cost of reproduction and often benefits from the widest exposure and availability, there are many counterexamples where fully voluntary work has been successful. Even HN itself might fairly be described as one at least partially, since karma points are not a monetary incentive and only the site's moderators and sysops are paid.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Yes, there are, including myself. I work for free for the D Language Foundation. You can't run a country like that, however.
- revolvingocelot 5y ago
  Sikhs [0] are humans, and presumably have the same human nature everyone in this thread shares. If the parent contends that what the Sikhs [0] do is a "commune", then the facticity of their continued success shows that "communes" do not always fail. If what the Sikhs do is not a "commune", then the parent has set up and defeated a strawman unrelated to the example set by Sikhs [0]. Which is it? As the facticity of Sikh [0] food distribution is not at issue[1], it's obvious that organizing this work based on altruism actually does work, and altruism at this scale is possible. The parent's emotional opposition to the concept has led them to make, and now defend, unrelated claims -- and ignore the reality on the ground. No one, beyond the parent themselves, brought up communes, forcible or otherwise. Even if this were relevant, the Sikhs [0] do not force anyone to participate in or accept their voluntary food distribution, so I'm at a total loss as to why any of this was brought up at all -- unless the parent is actually trying to advance an ideological position, which seems to be that cooperation doesn't work at scale [1]. Oops, I mean a slightly larger scale [2]. Perhaps that's true in whatever culture the parent grew up in, but as Sikhs [0] prove, it's obviously not a human universal. Perhaps the parent doesn't consider Sikhs human? What a repulsive argumentative style. [0] via langars [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31150154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31150154 <- in which it's suggested that since Sikhs [0] do not currently feed the entirety of their home country, this demonstrates that their approach cannot be scaled up any further [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31151819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31151819 <- history shows that most countries that attempt to feed all their citizens are naturally regime change'd by the CIA, so this one checks out
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > entirety I never said entirety. If you want to disagree with me, fine, but please don't add extra words that change the meaning. The Langar was proposed as a model for society. Shall we visit the numbers? 50,000 meals served per day, 1,380,000,000 people. 4,140,000,000 meals needed per day if it was a societal model. I estimate 2,000 volunteers are needed to do the 50,000 meals. Langar has been around for 400 years. Out of 1,380,000,000 they can only muster 2,000 volunteers. Does that sound workable as a model for society? It doesn't to me. The Langar relies on donations, too. I.e. whether it is a commune or not, it is not able to support itself. As for some American examples, there's Woodstock, which subsisted on donated food, medical attention, etc. That lasted for three days, then the people left the field completely carpeted in trash, left it for others to clean up. There was the summer of love in San Francisco, in 1969, which operated on give what you can, take what you need. It collapsed after 3 months, as too many people took and too few gave. > Perhaps the parent doesn't consider Sikhs human? What a repulsive argumentative style. That's your strawman.

WalterBright 5y ago

I didn't argue that people cannot work together at scale. My argument, admittedly heavyhanded, is that organizing this work based on altruism does not work. It may work here and there, for a period of time, but it is not sustainable. Organizations that work are ones where people are paid for the work they do, not ones that pay people regardless of the work they do. By the way, anti-ethical does not mean unethical. It means contrary to, in this case, contrary to human nature. I did not write that communes were anti-ethical. I wrote that they were anti-ethical to human nature, meaning they are contrary to human nature. There's nothing unethical about voluntary communes, but there's plenty unethical about forcible ones.

TaylorAlexander 5y ago
The Sikhs have been doing their thing for 400 years.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I presume you mean the Langar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_(Sikhism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_(Sikhism) As I noted in another post here, while an admirable endeavor, it has not managed to serve free meals to a significant percentage of India's population. There are apparently limits to selfless volunteerism.
  - fmmlp 4y ago
    I don't think they purpose is feeding the whole India population.
zozbot234 5y ago
> My argument, admittedly heavyhanded, is that organizing this work based on altruism does not work. It may work here and there, for a period of time For the special case of intellectual creation, which has no marginal cost of reproduction and often benefits from the widest exposure and availability, there are many counterexamples where fully voluntary work has been successful. Even HN itself might fairly be described as one at least partially, since karma points are not a monetary incentive and only the site's moderators and sysops are paid.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Yes, there are, including myself. I work for free for the D Language Foundation. You can't run a country like that, however.
revolvingocelot 5y ago
Sikhs [0] are humans, and presumably have the same human nature everyone in this thread shares. If the parent contends that what the Sikhs [0] do is a "commune", then the facticity of their continued success shows that "communes" do not always fail. If what the Sikhs do is not a "commune", then the parent has set up and defeated a strawman unrelated to the example set by Sikhs [0]. Which is it? As the facticity of Sikh [0] food distribution is not at issue[1], it's obvious that organizing this work based on altruism actually does work, and altruism at this scale is possible. The parent's emotional opposition to the concept has led them to make, and now defend, unrelated claims -- and ignore the reality on the ground. No one, beyond the parent themselves, brought up communes, forcible or otherwise. Even if this were relevant, the Sikhs [0] do not force anyone to participate in or accept their voluntary food distribution, so I'm at a total loss as to why any of this was brought up at all -- unless the parent is actually trying to advance an ideological position, which seems to be that cooperation doesn't work at scale [1]. Oops, I mean a slightly larger scale [2]. Perhaps that's true in whatever culture the parent grew up in, but as Sikhs [0] prove, it's obviously not a human universal. Perhaps the parent doesn't consider Sikhs human? What a repulsive argumentative style. [0] via langars [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31150154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31150154 <- in which it's suggested that since Sikhs [0] do not currently feed the entirety of their home country, this demonstrates that their approach cannot be scaled up any further [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31151819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31151819 <- history shows that most countries that attempt to feed all their citizens are naturally regime change'd by the CIA, so this one checks out
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > entirety I never said entirety. If you want to disagree with me, fine, but please don't add extra words that change the meaning. The Langar was proposed as a model for society. Shall we visit the numbers? 50,000 meals served per day, 1,380,000,000 people. 4,140,000,000 meals needed per day if it was a societal model. I estimate 2,000 volunteers are needed to do the 50,000 meals. Langar has been around for 400 years. Out of 1,380,000,000 they can only muster 2,000 volunteers. Does that sound workable as a model for society? It doesn't to me. The Langar relies on donations, too. I.e. whether it is a commune or not, it is not able to support itself. As for some American examples, there's Woodstock, which subsisted on donated food, medical attention, etc. That lasted for three days, then the people left the field completely carpeted in trash, left it for others to clean up. There was the summer of love in San Francisco, in 1969, which operated on give what you can, take what you need. It collapsed after 3 months, as too many people took and too few gave. > Perhaps the parent doesn't consider Sikhs human? What a repulsive argumentative style. That's your strawman.