4 ms·

“Psychedelics are to the study of the mind, what the microscope is to biology and the telescope is to astronomy” –Stanislas Grof. While it feels like an artifa

“Psychedelics are to the study of the mind, what the microscope is to biology and the telescope is to astronomy” –Stanislas Grof. While it feels like an artifact from the future, Berkeley CSP is now formally certifying "facilitators". And its important to note, because the cure is the experience. Not the actual biochemistry. We know a lot about the botany and chemistry of these compounds. And we can actually map phenotypes with human genes to predict certain effects. But the missing bridge between the two is the trip. The fact that we are finally after so many millennia attempting to apply Baconian methods to what was hitherto described as quasi-miraculous feats mystical exploration is exciting. And I believe will be fruitful, though in the short term generate many more questions than answers ;) https://bcsp.berkeley.edu/training/ https://bcsp.berkeley.edu/training/

pmoriarty 5y ago
I'm happy to see research done, wish these researchers nothing but the best, and do expect a lot of marvelous and useful discoveries to be made. However, I suspect that science will run in to hard limits regarding the deepest questions that contact with these substances raise -- such as the fundamental mystery they often reveal that is ineffable, transverbal and non-conceptual. These questions are more aptly addressed by philosophy and religion, and I expect that after an initial phase of medical and hard-science attempts to engage with the experiences these substances occasion (attempts that the highly rational and in some ways science-worshipping society demands before these substances can be legalized), most people's engagement will move to a religious and religio-medical model (or call it "spiritual" if you don't like the word "religious"). Psychedelics have shown to be catalysts for starting religions, occasioning mystical experiences, and converting people.. and these tendencies will only increase as psychedelic use becomes more popular. New religions will sprout and existing religions will try to incorporate psychedelic use once they see these substances revitalizing religious feeling and engagement. We're only starting to see the barest hints of this now, because most religious people aren't aware of psychedelics' potential in this area.. but this trend will almost certainly flourish once they are. There might be a backlash on some level, as some religions are allergic to giving their adherents direct access to what their authorities are supposed to have a monopoly over.. but it's not clear whether such suppression will be effective this time. Religious wars over psychedelic revelations might be possible too. It's too early to tell, but it'll be an interesting next couple of hundred years, that's for sure.
- ArtWomb 5y ago
  Alan Watts, I think put it best: The most important philosophical question you can ever ask is "Who Am I"? And that's what we are talking about here: seeing yourself, perhaps for the first time. Not societies expectation, the fount of all our neuroses. And undergoing the "ego-dissolution" the opens the door to healing. If you think about it: what is an addict? Rationally, they wish to cease. But physically, behaviorally cannot. Yet, here is a substance that in essence super-charges the rational mind. Instantly. The transformation is so acute, the old habits seem impossible. Now imagine your own mind, programmed to optimal turbo-charged rationality. Always picking the perfect action in any environment. Scale that across humanity and the possibilities, as stated, are not just new religions, but new evolutions ;)
  - lioeters 5y ago
    > they wish to cease Reminds me of the phrase cupio dissolvi, "I wish to be dissolved." > But I am straitened between two: having a desire to be dissolved and to be with Christ, a thing by far the better. But to abide still in the flesh, is needful for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupio_dissolvi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupio_dissolvi
- hallucination 5y ago
  You might be happy to know that at the BCSP (mentioned in the comment above) we are actively cultivating connections between scientific research and religious/philosophical practice via our collaboration with the Berkeley graduate theological union. It’s an initiative that I’m especially excited about because I come at this field with a mindset similar to the one you described.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    I looked over the bios of the faculty at the Berkeley graduate theological union recently (in hopes of finding someone to talk to about these issues), and was disappointed to find that they seem to have almost no one with an interest in mysticism or psychedelics -- something a little surprising considering Berkeley's storied psychedelic past and radical reputation. They seem to be generally pretty conservative in theological interest and academic (in the ivory tower, bookish, non-practical sense). I hope that I was mistaken or that it changes as they become more educated and aware, and maybe even acquire some personal experience with psychedelics. I personally do not understand how someone interested in religion could not be interested in mysticism or psychedelics, as they almost literally put the golden chalice in your hands and can bring to life all those things many academics merely read about. Even if mystical experiences occasioned by psychedelics aren't genuine (as Zaehner argued in the 60's -- arguments likely to be rehashed endlessly), they at the very least raise many questions of supreme religious importance and countless people do interpret their experiences in a religious/spiritual light. With church attendance falling for decades now, with more and more people disavowing religious affiliation and identifying themselves as "spiritual but not religious" or outright atheist, you'd think more religious people and academics with a theological bent would take an interest in substances that pretty reliably cause mystical experiences, but they seem to be mostly ignored and the religious side of academia mostly seem content to cede the field to the scientific and medical establishment. I hope the BCSP and other forward-thinking organizations can start opening people's eyes to the religious potential of psychedelics, because feedback and insight from religious professionals of all kinds could be very valuable.
zozbot234 5y ago
Meditation and mystical experiences can be pursued without any substance use at all. Psychedelics are merely a crutch, and one that ultimately limits our understanding and insight about these experiences.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  For those of us who don't subscribe to anything “mystical” as in magic, lots of us can see the value in realizing that we don't know everything about the biochemistry of the brain and that psychedelics (and a lesser extent meditation) are potentially very powerful tools into mapping out brain functions and features.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    There's nothing magical whatsoever about mystical experience, other than the trivial fact that anything that goes on in the universe might be described as some kind of natural "magic".
- kinghtown 5y ago
  I can’t help but feel you’ve never tried any? You can have out of body experiences across dimensions of awareness, speak to very strange beings, visit domed realms of self-revolving forms.. like just try and willpower that kind of thing next time you’re having a coffee.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    All of these things are possible with a sustained combination of concentration and insight meditation. Not only that, but they're far more easily understood without the massive chaos factor of psychedelics.
    - kinghtown 5y ago
      Are you speaking from experience?

pmoriarty 5y ago

I'm happy to see research done, wish these researchers nothing but the best, and do expect a lot of marvelous and useful discoveries to be made. However, I suspect that science will run in to hard limits regarding the deepest questions that contact with these substances raise -- such as the fundamental mystery they often reveal that is ineffable, transverbal and non-conceptual. These questions are more aptly addressed by philosophy and religion, and I expect that after an initial phase of medical and hard-science attempts to engage with the experiences these substances occasion (attempts that the highly rational and in some ways science-worshipping society demands before these substances can be legalized), most people's engagement will move to a religious and religio-medical model (or call it "spiritual" if you don't like the word "religious"). Psychedelics have shown to be catalysts for starting religions, occasioning mystical experiences, and converting people.. and these tendencies will only increase as psychedelic use becomes more popular. New religions will sprout and existing religions will try to incorporate psychedelic use once they see these substances revitalizing religious feeling and engagement. We're only starting to see the barest hints of this now, because most religious people aren't aware of psychedelics' potential in this area.. but this trend will almost certainly flourish once they are. There might be a backlash on some level, as some religions are allergic to giving their adherents direct access to what their authorities are supposed to have a monopoly over.. but it's not clear whether such suppression will be effective this time. Religious wars over psychedelic revelations might be possible too. It's too early to tell, but it'll be an interesting next couple of hundred years, that's for sure.

ArtWomb 5y ago
Alan Watts, I think put it best: The most important philosophical question you can ever ask is "Who Am I"? And that's what we are talking about here: seeing yourself, perhaps for the first time. Not societies expectation, the fount of all our neuroses. And undergoing the "ego-dissolution" the opens the door to healing. If you think about it: what is an addict? Rationally, they wish to cease. But physically, behaviorally cannot. Yet, here is a substance that in essence super-charges the rational mind. Instantly. The transformation is so acute, the old habits seem impossible. Now imagine your own mind, programmed to optimal turbo-charged rationality. Always picking the perfect action in any environment. Scale that across humanity and the possibilities, as stated, are not just new religions, but new evolutions ;)
- lioeters 5y ago
  > they wish to cease Reminds me of the phrase cupio dissolvi, "I wish to be dissolved." > But I am straitened between two: having a desire to be dissolved and to be with Christ, a thing by far the better. But to abide still in the flesh, is needful for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupio_dissolvi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupio_dissolvi
hallucination 5y ago
You might be happy to know that at the BCSP (mentioned in the comment above) we are actively cultivating connections between scientific research and religious/philosophical practice via our collaboration with the Berkeley graduate theological union. It’s an initiative that I’m especially excited about because I come at this field with a mindset similar to the one you described.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  I looked over the bios of the faculty at the Berkeley graduate theological union recently (in hopes of finding someone to talk to about these issues), and was disappointed to find that they seem to have almost no one with an interest in mysticism or psychedelics -- something a little surprising considering Berkeley's storied psychedelic past and radical reputation. They seem to be generally pretty conservative in theological interest and academic (in the ivory tower, bookish, non-practical sense). I hope that I was mistaken or that it changes as they become more educated and aware, and maybe even acquire some personal experience with psychedelics. I personally do not understand how someone interested in religion could not be interested in mysticism or psychedelics, as they almost literally put the golden chalice in your hands and can bring to life all those things many academics merely read about. Even if mystical experiences occasioned by psychedelics aren't genuine (as Zaehner argued in the 60's -- arguments likely to be rehashed endlessly), they at the very least raise many questions of supreme religious importance and countless people do interpret their experiences in a religious/spiritual light. With church attendance falling for decades now, with more and more people disavowing religious affiliation and identifying themselves as "spiritual but not religious" or outright atheist, you'd think more religious people and academics with a theological bent would take an interest in substances that pretty reliably cause mystical experiences, but they seem to be mostly ignored and the religious side of academia mostly seem content to cede the field to the scientific and medical establishment. I hope the BCSP and other forward-thinking organizations can start opening people's eyes to the religious potential of psychedelics, because feedback and insight from religious professionals of all kinds could be very valuable.

zozbot234 5y ago

Meditation and mystical experiences can be pursued without any substance use at all. Psychedelics are merely a crutch, and one that ultimately limits our understanding and insight about these experiences.

stjohnswarts 5y ago
For those of us who don't subscribe to anything “mystical” as in magic, lots of us can see the value in realizing that we don't know everything about the biochemistry of the brain and that psychedelics (and a lesser extent meditation) are potentially very powerful tools into mapping out brain functions and features.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  There's nothing magical whatsoever about mystical experience, other than the trivial fact that anything that goes on in the universe might be described as some kind of natural "magic".
kinghtown 5y ago
I can’t help but feel you’ve never tried any? You can have out of body experiences across dimensions of awareness, speak to very strange beings, visit domed realms of self-revolving forms.. like just try and willpower that kind of thing next time you’re having a coffee.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  All of these things are possible with a sustained combination of concentration and insight meditation. Not only that, but they're far more easily understood without the massive chaos factor of psychedelics.
  - kinghtown 5y ago
    Are you speaking from experience?