3 ms·

No worries, I appreciate the (would be) response! Definitely will be looking forward for it.

Forgeties79 4y ago
Greetings! As promised. >if they have their criteria on what is acceptable pay, won't the natural course of things is to quit on the unacceptable job and just find a better paying jobs, which means business as usual...I was under the impression that the article seem to imply that Gen Z don't have the capability of choosing good jobs because of lack of good job market or marketable skills etc, I'd argue that it isn't business as usual because Gen Z is leveraging this once-in-a-few-decades opportunity where employees have some power into "what can you do for me?" discussions with companies and it's working [1]. Gone are the days of "company loyalty," partially because without pensions there's no incentive to put anything on the line for company. At the end of the day, they're remembering the core reason why people work in the first place: To get paid. I don't produce video content for a company "for the team" or "because I love the culture," I do it because they pay me, and it just so happens I also respect the company and want to see it grow. But that second consideration will never - and should never - outweigh #1. Gen Z seems to be internalizing this lesson very well. >I am actually confused on how people were able to get a house with an entry level job at all. It's simple: they don't. That era ended decades ago in the US. As for your bit about bootstraps, Americans' belief in that took a nasty plunge during The Great Recession and has been under sharp scrutiny for the better part of a decade [2]. The rise of student loan debt is also a huge factor here, as more and more millennials are putting off the next stage of their lives, such as homeownership/marriage/kids/etc., to try and tackle their high five-figure and six-figure debt. Want to know one of the biggest examples of this? Medicine. Some figures [3] * [US] The average medical school debt is $215,900, excluding premedical undergraduate and other educational debt. * The average medical school graduate owes $241,600 in total student loan debt. * 76-89% of medical school graduates have educational debt. * 43% of indebted medical school graduates have premedical educational debt. * The average medical school graduate owes 6 times as much as the average college graduate. * 55% of medical school students use loans specifically to help pay for medical school (as opposed to undergraduate or premed debt). * Adjusted for inflation, average medical school debt is over 4x what it was in 1978. Almost double what it was in 1998. Now sure, you can go "well they'll be doctors so they'll pay it off quickly." But you know who suffers here? Small, rural communities, and generally any area that has a small medical footprint [4]. I digress, but these issues have very far-reaching implications and impacts. People who owe $250,000 USD do not want to go work in a small community where they'll make pennies compared to elsewhere. The interest alone is crushing. >Currently I don't have any debt and earn L4 FAANG level salary. Congratulations, I sincerely mean that. Many millennials didn't clue in to the opportunities in coding until it was too late. Now yes, you can always do coding bootcamps or teach yourself, but not everyone can easily switch over to a job like that, and frankly in the 2010's that's where a lot of the opportunity to "pull yourself up" lay. People who are working for pennies often barely have the energy to cook for themselves, let alone teach themselves how to code. >So, my natural response to the Gen Zs would be like, "Yes I agree, don't work for $7.25. But why go to expensive college and get 6 figure debts, why not go to a trade school? Doing what you love is nice, but market forces still exist, and no amount of regulations can change that. People buy what they need first. We can't force people to spend money on art yet, when they need engineering first" You're right, and that's exactly what Gen Z is asking/saying! They are going, "Wow you millennials got rocked and the same way is paved for us. Screw that." Though I do have a pretty huge caveat about "forcing people to spend money on art," but that's a whole other discussion. Suffice to say arts and humanities deserve the same investment we give STEM. It's not about forcing people to pay for it, it's about supporting them and creating opportunity for art and culture. I don't see why that isn't a worthwhile investment. [1] https://time.com/6143212/us-wage-growth-record-high/ https://time.com/6143212/us-wage-growth-record-high/ [2] https://money.howstuffworks.com/bootstrap-myth-climbing-economic-ladder-takes-more-hard-work.htm https://money.howstuffworks.com/bootstrap-myth-climbing-econ... [3] https://educationdata.org/average-medical-school-debt https://educationdata.org/average-medical-school-debt [4] https://www.medicaleconomics.com/view/dealing-shortage-rural-physicians https://www.medicaleconomics.com/view/dealing-shortage-rural...
- immigrantheart 4y ago
  Thank you for the reply! I really appreciate it. > I'd argue that it isn't business as usual because Gen Z is leveraging this once-in-a-few-decades opportunity where employees have some power into "what can you do for me?" discussions with companies and it's working [1]. Gone are the days of "company loyalty," partially because without pensions there's no incentive to put anything on the line for company. At the end of the day, they're remembering the core reason why people work in the first place: To get paid. I don't produce video content for a company "for the team" or "because I love the culture," I do it because they pay me, and it just so happens I also respect the company and want to see it grow. But that second consideration will never - and should never - outweigh #1. Gen Z seems to be internalizing this lesson very well. Ahh I see, that makes sense. Yes the environment today is once in a lifetime opportunity. I wonder though whether this kind of environment will stay. I.e as a software engineer, yes we can say more and more that it is all mostly money, not work culture or for the team. But for Gen-Z ers that work in low paying warehouse jobs, they won't be as fortunate. > It's simple: they don't. That era ended decades ago in the US. As for your bit about bootstraps, Americans' belief in that took a nasty plunge during The Great Recession and has been under sharp scrutiny for the better part of a decade [2]. The rise of student loan debt is also a huge factor here, as more and more millennials are putting off the next stage of their lives, such as homeownership/marriage/kids/etc., to try and tackle their high five-figure and six-figure debt. Yeah, I figured such. I guess this is the reality of today's world, not just in the US but also (and way worse) in other countries. However, I still believe that IT jobs (software engineering, IT related work) and to a lesser extent, a craft-based work like woodworking, plumbing, is still the ticket from poverty to at least middle class. The cost for this trade-based schools are lesser than college. In some sense, we still have a bit leftover of the pull yourself up from the bootstrap. > Congratulations, I sincerely mean that. Many millennials didn't clue in to the opportunities in coding until it was too late. Now yes, you can always do coding bootcamps or teach yourself, but not everyone can easily switch over to a job like that, and frankly in the 2010's that's where a lot of the opportunity to "pull yourself up" lay. People who are working for pennies often barely have the energy to cook for themselves, let alone teach themselves how to code. Indeed, I was lucky. I actually got to a programming bootcamp after rejections from 9 bootcamps lol. At that time, I had only $14k in bank and $12k went to bootcamp. That was around 6 - 7 years ago. Yes not that many people can do coding. However, what do you think about my comment above about trade schools being a ticket for people from poverty to at least middle class. > You're right, and that's exactly what Gen Z is asking/saying! They are going, "Wow you millennials got rocked and the same way is paved for us. Screw that." Though I do have a pretty huge caveat about "forcing people to spend money on art," but that's a whole other discussion. Suffice to say arts and humanities deserve the same investment we give STEM. It's not about forcing people to pay for it, it's about supporting them and creating opportunity for art and culture. I don't see why that isn't a worthwhile investment. Yes, so I think Gen Z and the generations below should be educated financially and what are the implications of going to expensive colleges. Japan is an interesting one in this regard. Arts and culture are highly regarding (besides STEM) as well. You can very well find people who go into some random candy shop and decides that "I want to be a candy master" and actually make a living. Japanese values their own thing, created by their own people over generally imported stuffs from other countries (i.e, China). What do you have in mind in regarding of supporting/creating opportunity for art and culture?

Greetings! As promised. >if they have their criteria on what is acceptable pay, won't the natural course of things is to quit on the unacceptable job and just find a better paying jobs, which means business as usual...I was under the impression that the article seem to imply that Gen Z don't have the capability of choosing good jobs because of lack of good job market or marketable skills etc, I'd argue that it isn't business as usual because Gen Z is leveraging this once-in-a-few-decades opportunity where employees have some power into "what can you do for me?" discussions with companies and it's working [1]. Gone are the days of "company loyalty," partially because without pensions there's no incentive to put anything on the line for company. At the end of the day, they're remembering the core reason why people work in the first place: To get paid. I don't produce video content for a company "for the team" or "because I love the culture," I do it because they pay me, and it just so happens I also respect the company and want to see it grow. But that second consideration will never - and should never - outweigh #1. Gen Z seems to be internalizing this lesson very well. >I am actually confused on how people were able to get a house with an entry level job at all. It's simple: they don't. That era ended decades ago in the US. As for your bit about bootstraps, Americans' belief in that took a nasty plunge during The Great Recession and has been under sharp scrutiny for the better part of a decade [2]. The rise of student loan debt is also a huge factor here, as more and more millennials are putting off the next stage of their lives, such as homeownership/marriage/kids/etc., to try and tackle their high five-figure and six-figure debt. Want to know one of the biggest examples of this? Medicine. Some figures [3] * [US] The average medical school debt is $215,900, excluding premedical undergraduate and other educational debt. * The average medical school graduate owes $241,600 in total student loan debt. * 76-89% of medical school graduates have educational debt. * 43% of indebted medical school graduates have premedical educational debt. * The average medical school graduate owes 6 times as much as the average college graduate. * 55% of medical school students use loans specifically to help pay for medical school (as opposed to undergraduate or premed debt). * Adjusted for inflation, average medical school debt is over 4x what it was in 1978. Almost double what it was in 1998. Now sure, you can go "well they'll be doctors so they'll pay it off quickly." But you know who suffers here? Small, rural communities, and generally any area that has a small medical footprint [4]. I digress, but these issues have very far-reaching implications and impacts. People who owe $250,000 USD do not want to go work in a small community where they'll make pennies compared to elsewhere. The interest alone is crushing. >Currently I don't have any debt and earn L4 FAANG level salary. Congratulations, I sincerely mean that. Many millennials didn't clue in to the opportunities in coding until it was too late. Now yes, you can always do coding bootcamps or teach yourself, but not everyone can easily switch over to a job like that, and frankly in the 2010's that's where a lot of the opportunity to "pull yourself up" lay. People who are working for pennies often barely have the energy to cook for themselves, let alone teach themselves how to code. >So, my natural response to the Gen Zs would be like, "Yes I agree, don't work for $7.25. But why go to expensive college and get 6 figure debts, why not go to a trade school? Doing what you love is nice, but market forces still exist, and no amount of regulations can change that. People buy what they need first. We can't force people to spend money on art yet, when they need engineering first" You're right, and that's exactly what Gen Z is asking/saying! They are going, "Wow you millennials got rocked and the same way is paved for us. Screw that." Though I do have a pretty huge caveat about "forcing people to spend money on art," but that's a whole other discussion. Suffice to say arts and humanities deserve the same investment we give STEM. It's not about forcing people to pay for it, it's about supporting them and creating opportunity for art and culture. I don't see why that isn't a worthwhile investment. [1] https://time.com/6143212/us-wage-growth-record-high/ https://time.com/6143212/us-wage-growth-record-high/ [2] https://money.howstuffworks.com/bootstrap-myth-climbing-economic-ladder-takes-more-hard-work.htm https://money.howstuffworks.com/bootstrap-myth-climbing-econ... [3] https://educationdata.org/average-medical-school-debt https://educationdata.org/average-medical-school-debt [4] https://www.medicaleconomics.com/view/dealing-shortage-rural-physicians https://www.medicaleconomics.com/view/dealing-shortage-rural...

immigrantheart 4y ago
Thank you for the reply! I really appreciate it. > I'd argue that it isn't business as usual because Gen Z is leveraging this once-in-a-few-decades opportunity where employees have some power into "what can you do for me?" discussions with companies and it's working [1]. Gone are the days of "company loyalty," partially because without pensions there's no incentive to put anything on the line for company. At the end of the day, they're remembering the core reason why people work in the first place: To get paid. I don't produce video content for a company "for the team" or "because I love the culture," I do it because they pay me, and it just so happens I also respect the company and want to see it grow. But that second consideration will never - and should never - outweigh #1. Gen Z seems to be internalizing this lesson very well. Ahh I see, that makes sense. Yes the environment today is once in a lifetime opportunity. I wonder though whether this kind of environment will stay. I.e as a software engineer, yes we can say more and more that it is all mostly money, not work culture or for the team. But for Gen-Z ers that work in low paying warehouse jobs, they won't be as fortunate. > It's simple: they don't. That era ended decades ago in the US. As for your bit about bootstraps, Americans' belief in that took a nasty plunge during The Great Recession and has been under sharp scrutiny for the better part of a decade [2]. The rise of student loan debt is also a huge factor here, as more and more millennials are putting off the next stage of their lives, such as homeownership/marriage/kids/etc., to try and tackle their high five-figure and six-figure debt. Yeah, I figured such. I guess this is the reality of today's world, not just in the US but also (and way worse) in other countries. However, I still believe that IT jobs (software engineering, IT related work) and to a lesser extent, a craft-based work like woodworking, plumbing, is still the ticket from poverty to at least middle class. The cost for this trade-based schools are lesser than college. In some sense, we still have a bit leftover of the pull yourself up from the bootstrap. > Congratulations, I sincerely mean that. Many millennials didn't clue in to the opportunities in coding until it was too late. Now yes, you can always do coding bootcamps or teach yourself, but not everyone can easily switch over to a job like that, and frankly in the 2010's that's where a lot of the opportunity to "pull yourself up" lay. People who are working for pennies often barely have the energy to cook for themselves, let alone teach themselves how to code. Indeed, I was lucky. I actually got to a programming bootcamp after rejections from 9 bootcamps lol. At that time, I had only $14k in bank and $12k went to bootcamp. That was around 6 - 7 years ago. Yes not that many people can do coding. However, what do you think about my comment above about trade schools being a ticket for people from poverty to at least middle class. > You're right, and that's exactly what Gen Z is asking/saying! They are going, "Wow you millennials got rocked and the same way is paved for us. Screw that." Though I do have a pretty huge caveat about "forcing people to spend money on art," but that's a whole other discussion. Suffice to say arts and humanities deserve the same investment we give STEM. It's not about forcing people to pay for it, it's about supporting them and creating opportunity for art and culture. I don't see why that isn't a worthwhile investment. Yes, so I think Gen Z and the generations below should be educated financially and what are the implications of going to expensive colleges. Japan is an interesting one in this regard. Arts and culture are highly regarding (besides STEM) as well. You can very well find people who go into some random candy shop and decides that "I want to be a candy master" and actually make a living. Japanese values their own thing, created by their own people over generally imported stuffs from other countries (i.e, China). What do you have in mind in regarding of supporting/creating opportunity for art and culture?