6 ms·

> immediately hit countermeasures without thinking Out of curiosity, if this is the doctrine, why doesn't the plane just fire countermeasures automatically?

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
Some systems do. I've worked on one.
ceejayoz 5y ago
If you’re low on countermeasures you may want to dole them out more sparingly.
- dasudasu 5y ago
  Pretty much. There's a recent video going around of a Russian helicopter in Ukraine firing off all its flares in panic after its sister helicopter is taken out by MANPADS. Predictably, the Ukrainians wait until he runs out, and then he gets taken out anyway. Not that hard to search for it.
  - krisoft 5y ago
    Indeed. I was thinking about the same video in response to this question. Here is a link: https://twitter.com/Blue_Sauron/status/1517817773199699977 https://twitter.com/Blue_Sauron/status/1517817773199699977
    - oconnor663 5y ago
      It seems like the natural next step would be "automatically deploy countermeasures while you still have [some threshold] remaining, then revert to manual below that," but I can also see how needing to train pilots in two or more different modes starts to pile up complexity costs and maybe leads to more mistakes compared to a simpler system.
      - megous 5y ago
        I'm not sure the pilot would even notice the missile to do anything about it manually..
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- samstave 5y ago
  /Why, I oughta.... -- In Military Countermeasures
QuarterReptile 5y ago
Ah, the balancing act of human in the loop.
samstave 5y ago
This was super interesting regarding the ejection seat's features and behavior depending on speed and altitude at which the seat ejects. https://martin-baker.com/products/mk16-ejection-seat-for-rafale/ https://martin-baker.com/products/mk16-ejection-seat-for-raf...
Diesel555 5y ago
https://extantaerospace.com/products/ALE-47_CDU.pdf https://extantaerospace.com/products/ALE-47_CDU.pdf [pdf] In the picture above you will see a dial for modes. They range from human tell the machine exactly what to do (via the PRGM dial and other switches), to human consent to what the machine wants to do, to machine do what you want to do.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Merad 5y ago
I'd be willing to bet the "hit the countermeasures immediately" reflex was because they were landing. Low altitude, low speed, no ability to maneuver. If somebody was shooting at you in that situation the missile would be on you in seconds and countermeasures are the only chance you have. In a more normal combat situation there's a lot more human judgement needed in the use of countermeasures. For example if a fighter locks you up and fires a missile from 50 km away and you fire chaff immediately you might temporarily disrupt their lock, but it's likely that the chaff will disperse and they'll be able to re-lock you before the missile gets anywhere close. You can't just fire them off continuously because it's a limited consumable.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

Some systems do. I've worked on one.

ceejayoz 5y ago

If you’re low on countermeasures you may want to dole them out more sparingly.

dasudasu 5y ago
Pretty much. There's a recent video going around of a Russian helicopter in Ukraine firing off all its flares in panic after its sister helicopter is taken out by MANPADS. Predictably, the Ukrainians wait until he runs out, and then he gets taken out anyway. Not that hard to search for it.
- krisoft 5y ago
  Indeed. I was thinking about the same video in response to this question. Here is a link: https://twitter.com/Blue_Sauron/status/1517817773199699977 https://twitter.com/Blue_Sauron/status/1517817773199699977
  - oconnor663 5y ago
    It seems like the natural next step would be "automatically deploy countermeasures while you still have [some threshold] remaining, then revert to manual below that," but I can also see how needing to train pilots in two or more different modes starts to pile up complexity costs and maybe leads to more mistakes compared to a simpler system.
    - megous 5y ago
      I'm not sure the pilot would even notice the missile to do anything about it manually..
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
samstave 5y ago
/Why, I oughta.... -- In Military Countermeasures

QuarterReptile 5y ago

Ah, the balancing act of human in the loop.

samstave 5y ago

This was super interesting regarding the ejection seat's features and behavior depending on speed and altitude at which the seat ejects. https://martin-baker.com/products/mk16-ejection-seat-for-rafale/ https://martin-baker.com/products/mk16-ejection-seat-for-raf...

Diesel555 5y ago

https://extantaerospace.com/products/ALE-47_CDU.pdf https://extantaerospace.com/products/ALE-47_CDU.pdf [pdf] In the picture above you will see a dial for modes. They range from human tell the machine exactly what to do (via the PRGM dial and other switches), to human consent to what the machine wants to do, to machine do what you want to do.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Merad 5y ago

I'd be willing to bet the "hit the countermeasures immediately" reflex was because they were landing. Low altitude, low speed, no ability to maneuver. If somebody was shooting at you in that situation the missile would be on you in seconds and countermeasures are the only chance you have. In a more normal combat situation there's a lot more human judgement needed in the use of countermeasures. For example if a fighter locks you up and fires a missile from 50 km away and you fire chaff immediately you might temporarily disrupt their lock, but it's likely that the chaff will disperse and they'll be able to re-lock you before the missile gets anywhere close. You can't just fire them off continuously because it's a limited consumable.