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Ouch! I'm glad the guy is okay, that could not have been "fun" given the description of the ejection. In Sunnyvale they used to train Orion P3 crews at Moffett

Ouch! I'm glad the guy is okay, that could not have been "fun" given the description of the ejection. In Sunnyvale they used to train Orion P3 crews at Moffett field. Of course Sunnyvale and the surrounding towns had a few military contractors doing RADAR development who did not have many military targets to paint, so when a P3 flew over it made for a good "real life" test. On one such flight, the check pilot decided to "spice up" the newbie pilot's life as they returned to Moffett field by casually flicked on the RADAR threat detector. Sure enough, one of the contractor's search RADARs was 'pinging' them, but unexpectedly they were also testing a tracking RADAR which then subsequently got a good lock on the plane. That made the RADAR LOCK alarm go off in the cockpit and the trainee, as he was trained to do, immediately hit countermeasures without thinking. (That will save your life!) The plane was on final approach to the field, and when it activated countermeasures it consisted of both chaff and IR flares (bits of magnesium, lit and cast to the side to distract heat seekers) These mostly landed on the Sunnyvale golf course which is in the approach path. I used to play that course, and after this event there were a number of burn spots where the flares had landed and then burned out on the ground, and for probably two months there were bits of foil chaff that could be found in various nooks and crannies around the course!

oconnor663 5y ago
> immediately hit countermeasures without thinking Out of curiosity, if this is the doctrine, why doesn't the plane just fire countermeasures automatically?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  Some systems do. I've worked on one.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  If you’re low on countermeasures you may want to dole them out more sparingly.
  - dasudasu 5y ago
    Pretty much. There's a recent video going around of a Russian helicopter in Ukraine firing off all its flares in panic after its sister helicopter is taken out by MANPADS. Predictably, the Ukrainians wait until he runs out, and then he gets taken out anyway. Not that hard to search for it.
    - krisoft 5y ago
      Indeed. I was thinking about the same video in response to this question. Here is a link: https://twitter.com/Blue_Sauron/status/1517817773199699977 https://twitter.com/Blue_Sauron/status/1517817773199699977
      - oconnor663 5y ago
        It seems like the natural next step would be "automatically deploy countermeasures while you still have [some threshold] remaining, then revert to manual below that," but I can also see how needing to train pilots in two or more different modes starts to pile up complexity costs and maybe leads to more mistakes compared to a simpler system.
        megous 5y ago
        I'm not sure the pilot would even notice the missile to do anything about it manually..
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - samstave 5y ago
    /Why, I oughta.... -- In Military Countermeasures
- QuarterReptile 5y ago
  Ah, the balancing act of human in the loop.
- samstave 5y ago
  This was super interesting regarding the ejection seat's features and behavior depending on speed and altitude at which the seat ejects. https://martin-baker.com/products/mk16-ejection-seat-for-rafale/ https://martin-baker.com/products/mk16-ejection-seat-for-raf...
- Diesel555 5y ago
  https://extantaerospace.com/products/ALE-47_CDU.pdf https://extantaerospace.com/products/ALE-47_CDU.pdf [pdf] In the picture above you will see a dial for modes. They range from human tell the machine exactly what to do (via the PRGM dial and other switches), to human consent to what the machine wants to do, to machine do what you want to do.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Merad 5y ago
  I'd be willing to bet the "hit the countermeasures immediately" reflex was because they were landing. Low altitude, low speed, no ability to maneuver. If somebody was shooting at you in that situation the missile would be on you in seconds and countermeasures are the only chance you have. In a more normal combat situation there's a lot more human judgement needed in the use of countermeasures. For example if a fighter locks you up and fires a missile from 50 km away and you fire chaff immediately you might temporarily disrupt their lock, but it's likely that the chaff will disperse and they'll be able to re-lock you before the missile gets anywhere close. You can't just fire them off continuously because it's a limited consumable.
inamberclad 5y ago
Love those old stories. I've climbed through the P-3 on static display outside the ramp, and I wish they still flew more of them around there. I used to be friends with a guy at the local grocery store who was a P-3 mechanic.
dkbrk 5y ago
That reminds me of this story: https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/8u0q6i/tifu_by_scaring_the_hell_out_of_an_f15_pilot_over/ https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/8u0q6i/tifu_by_scarin...
Diesel555 5y ago
> That made the RADAR LOCK alarm go off in the cockpit and the trainee, as he was trained to do, immediately hit countermeasures without thinking. (That will save your life!) And this is why there are armament switching which you turn on only when you enter approved airspace to employ weapons / countermeasures and turn off when you leave (and vocalize on the radio to do so for the rest of the jets in the formation). Then pushing the button which releases weapons or countermeasures does nothing.
- adastra22 5y ago
  ...and then the enemy surprise-attacks you in your own airspace and easily shoots down all your planes?
  - hasmolo 5y ago
    all guns should have a safety...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - Diesel555 5y ago
    My comment, as well as the parent post, refers to training. When not in training, the placement of armament switches, as well as many other risk avoidance measures, will vary based on the type of conflict and risk. There is a good article from a Ukrainian fighter pilot you can read to see the extreme opposite of the training environment (high risk flight with enemy overhead). The most surprising thing is that he doesn't run pre-flight checks. I bet he took off with those switches armed. > https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44877/ukrainian-fighter-pilots-describe-their-desperate-air-war-against-russia https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44877/ukrainian-fighte...
    - ChuckMcM 5y ago
      This comment is correct, it is not "normal" to enable the RADAR threat subsystem on training runs or when just flying along in your own airspace. The fault here was on the check pilot who thought it would be "fun" to turn that subsystem on to see the reaction.
kakwa_ 5y ago
It reminds me of a similar story I heard a while ago. As in your story, some military contractors were testing a new radar system at the factory. And conveniently, the factory was near an international airport, so they were using the civilian traffic as targets. As these planes usually don't have threat detectors, they were completely unaware they were used as guinea pigs for this new radar. That was until someone had the brilliant idea to test the radar on an El Al plane... This must have scared the hell out of the Israeli pilots and it seems this created a small diplomatic incident.
- IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
  I had to do a double take over 2 days to understand what you mean. I've flown El Al...but I forgot the brand. In the initial read, I thought you were referring to a fighter plane make (kfir, mirage, sukoi, mig etc) so your story didnt make sense. Your story is more enticing with that context
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

oconnor663 5y ago

> immediately hit countermeasures without thinking Out of curiosity, if this is the doctrine, why doesn't the plane just fire countermeasures automatically?

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
Some systems do. I've worked on one.
ceejayoz 5y ago
If you’re low on countermeasures you may want to dole them out more sparingly.
- dasudasu 5y ago
  Pretty much. There's a recent video going around of a Russian helicopter in Ukraine firing off all its flares in panic after its sister helicopter is taken out by MANPADS. Predictably, the Ukrainians wait until he runs out, and then he gets taken out anyway. Not that hard to search for it.
  - krisoft 5y ago
    Indeed. I was thinking about the same video in response to this question. Here is a link: https://twitter.com/Blue_Sauron/status/1517817773199699977 https://twitter.com/Blue_Sauron/status/1517817773199699977
    - oconnor663 5y ago
      It seems like the natural next step would be "automatically deploy countermeasures while you still have [some threshold] remaining, then revert to manual below that," but I can also see how needing to train pilots in two or more different modes starts to pile up complexity costs and maybe leads to more mistakes compared to a simpler system.
      - megous 5y ago
        I'm not sure the pilot would even notice the missile to do anything about it manually..
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- samstave 5y ago
  /Why, I oughta.... -- In Military Countermeasures
QuarterReptile 5y ago
Ah, the balancing act of human in the loop.
samstave 5y ago
This was super interesting regarding the ejection seat's features and behavior depending on speed and altitude at which the seat ejects. https://martin-baker.com/products/mk16-ejection-seat-for-rafale/ https://martin-baker.com/products/mk16-ejection-seat-for-raf...
Diesel555 5y ago
https://extantaerospace.com/products/ALE-47_CDU.pdf https://extantaerospace.com/products/ALE-47_CDU.pdf [pdf] In the picture above you will see a dial for modes. They range from human tell the machine exactly what to do (via the PRGM dial and other switches), to human consent to what the machine wants to do, to machine do what you want to do.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Merad 5y ago
I'd be willing to bet the "hit the countermeasures immediately" reflex was because they were landing. Low altitude, low speed, no ability to maneuver. If somebody was shooting at you in that situation the missile would be on you in seconds and countermeasures are the only chance you have. In a more normal combat situation there's a lot more human judgement needed in the use of countermeasures. For example if a fighter locks you up and fires a missile from 50 km away and you fire chaff immediately you might temporarily disrupt their lock, but it's likely that the chaff will disperse and they'll be able to re-lock you before the missile gets anywhere close. You can't just fire them off continuously because it's a limited consumable.

inamberclad 5y ago

Love those old stories. I've climbed through the P-3 on static display outside the ramp, and I wish they still flew more of them around there. I used to be friends with a guy at the local grocery store who was a P-3 mechanic.

dkbrk 5y ago

That reminds me of this story: https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/8u0q6i/tifu_by_scaring_the_hell_out_of_an_f15_pilot_over/ https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/8u0q6i/tifu_by_scarin...

Diesel555 5y ago

> That made the RADAR LOCK alarm go off in the cockpit and the trainee, as he was trained to do, immediately hit countermeasures without thinking. (That will save your life!) And this is why there are armament switching which you turn on only when you enter approved airspace to employ weapons / countermeasures and turn off when you leave (and vocalize on the radio to do so for the rest of the jets in the formation). Then pushing the button which releases weapons or countermeasures does nothing.

adastra22 5y ago
...and then the enemy surprise-attacks you in your own airspace and easily shoots down all your planes?
- hasmolo 5y ago
  all guns should have a safety...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- Diesel555 5y ago
  My comment, as well as the parent post, refers to training. When not in training, the placement of armament switches, as well as many other risk avoidance measures, will vary based on the type of conflict and risk. There is a good article from a Ukrainian fighter pilot you can read to see the extreme opposite of the training environment (high risk flight with enemy overhead). The most surprising thing is that he doesn't run pre-flight checks. I bet he took off with those switches armed. > https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44877/ukrainian-fighter-pilots-describe-their-desperate-air-war-against-russia https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44877/ukrainian-fighte...
  - ChuckMcM 5y ago
    This comment is correct, it is not "normal" to enable the RADAR threat subsystem on training runs or when just flying along in your own airspace. The fault here was on the check pilot who thought it would be "fun" to turn that subsystem on to see the reaction.

kakwa_ 5y ago

It reminds me of a similar story I heard a while ago. As in your story, some military contractors were testing a new radar system at the factory. And conveniently, the factory was near an international airport, so they were using the civilian traffic as targets. As these planes usually don't have threat detectors, they were completely unaware they were used as guinea pigs for this new radar. That was until someone had the brilliant idea to test the radar on an El Al plane... This must have scared the hell out of the Israeli pilots and it seems this created a small diplomatic incident.

IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
I had to do a double take over 2 days to understand what you mean. I've flown El Al...but I forgot the brand. In the initial read, I thought you were referring to a fighter plane make (kfir, mirage, sukoi, mig etc) so your story didnt make sense. Your story is more enticing with that context

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]