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> maybe voice an opinion of your own In regards to "type hinting/type checking" in Python, my "opinion" is somewhat similar to automated testing: "use it when

> maybe voice an opinion of your own In regards to "type hinting/type checking" in Python, my "opinion" is somewhat similar to automated testing: "use it when it can help increase your confidence about the soundness of your program and its design, but don't rely on it as a guarantee of it being bug-free." In regards to the article, my opinion is that if you want to claim "disappointment" with a language your expectations should be aligned with the language developers and the general motivations of the community at large. Another opinion is that if the author took the time to understand these underlying motivations there would be no "disappointment" and consequently no article, perhaps? > expose yourself to critique Hum, that's interesting. I don't think of "expressing an opinion" as something that "exposes oneself to critique". Maybe I am too accustomed with the idea of "keeping my identity small" and "strong opinions, loosely held", that it's natural to me to differentiate an "attack" on the argument vs the person? Any chance is this why you are so defensive? > try to avoid the cross-examination? It's against the rules on HN. First, not rules but guidelines. Second, you have been responding with passive-aggressive insults and retorts which also makes for unpleasant conversation. Third and most important, there is no cross-examination. I am not challenging your motives or trying to invalidate you as a way to invalidate your opinion. The "prodding" is because I don't think your argument has any merit yet, but perhaps this could change if you provided some underlying reason? > I've already told you your meta-commentary is unwanted. It's not lost on me that I when I asked "what you would like to change about python's type hinting without changing the language, and what is wrong about python's type checking that is not just a matter of improving the tool", you completely ignored it and preferred to continue with this grating back-and-forth. Anyway, you are right when you say it's time to lay this one to rest. I hope the next one gets to be more enlightening to both of us.

the_af 5y ago
> First, not rules but guidelines. Second, you have been responding with passive-aggressive insults and retorts which also makes for unpleasant conversation. You continue nitpicking! You would do better if you followed those "guidelines". Indeed this conversation has been unpleasant, but it's all on you. You have been condescending and insulting. I suggest you focus your energies on better enterprises next time, maybe engage with the article itself instead of picking on others. It will do you good. > The "prodding" is because I don't think your argument has any merit yet, but perhaps this could change if you provided some underlying reason? Surely you can see there's nothing to gain by explaining myself to someone who thinks "my argument doesn't have any merit" (and who doesn't think that's insulting) and who keeps misrepresenting everything I say? I just said something, shared by many others, and you felt triggered by the opinion: that's fine, I don't want to convince you of anything, nor do I feel like being "educated" by you. > Maybe I am too accustomed with the idea of "keeping my identity small" and "strong opinions, loosely held", that it's natural to me to differentiate an "attack" on the argument vs the person? Well, you haven't done a good job at it, then! What do you hope to gain, at this point? Are you waiting for me to "see reason"? That's not going to happen. Surely you see sooner or later dang will intervene here and tell us to shut it down? re: insulting, passive-aggressive behavior: I re-read our exchange from the start. I was polite, even agreed with you sometimes ("I'm nodding in agreement, why do you think I think otherwise") while your tone kept getting more condescending with each reply, failing to accept my agreements and prodding in what I guess you felt was an "educational" tone. Honestly, hand on your heart, do you believe your responses were made in the best possible tone and were the best way to conduct an honest conversation? Do you believe the default position of "this argument has no merit, but maybe if this person explains his team's and company's motivations to my satisfaction I might change my mind" is a mindset that is conducive to amicable conversation? I think, if you're honest, you should admit maybe a tiny bit of misbehavior here. I also read replies you've made in other articles and you seem more reasonable. I'll chalk it up to you not being able to let go at this point, and so you must bite and nitpick at everything I say. I really think you should let it go, make your peace with not being able to convince me of your point of view, and move on to other enterprises.
- rglullis 5y ago
  I thought you were going to let me have the last word. ;) > someone who thinks "my argument doesn't have any merit" (and who doesn't think that's insulting) You forgot the yet. No, it's not nitpicking. Without it, it would be a mere judgmental sentence and it would make sense if you felt dismissed. With it, it is a sign that I am trying to reach for a point of agreement or an understanding. You are claiming I am the one "biting and nitpicking on everything", but you also could've given a much more charitable interpretation to this, much like you could have done it for the last 6-7 exchanges we had. And sorry, but I really don't see what is "insulting" about it. Well, at least I don't see how this is insulting if we are to have a rational conversation. This would be insulting only for those who'd be tying their self-image to any of the things being discussed. > Honestly, hand on your heart, do you believe your responses were made in the best possible tone and were the best way to conduct an honest conversation? Yes...? Maybe I am relying too much on the Socratic method, but my questions were mostly to dig in for Truth, not to grieve you. But given the way that old man died, perhaps I should try a different path to not end on the same way as he did.
  - the_af 5y ago
    > "Maybe I am relying too much on the Socratic method, but my questions were mostly to dig in for Truth, not to grieve you." Oh. My. God. A Socrates complex. I give up.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      I extended a olive branch, made a self-deprecating post and your response is a metaphorical "ha-ha" finger-pointing, like an eighth-grader? I guess you were right all along, this conversation should've ended two days ago. You win the xkcd 386 today. Good night and good luck.
      - the_af 5y ago
        Thank you. Finally! Goodbye.

the_af 5y ago

> First, not rules but guidelines. Second, you have been responding with passive-aggressive insults and retorts which also makes for unpleasant conversation. You continue nitpicking! You would do better if you followed those "guidelines". Indeed this conversation has been unpleasant, but it's all on you. You have been condescending and insulting. I suggest you focus your energies on better enterprises next time, maybe engage with the article itself instead of picking on others. It will do you good. > The "prodding" is because I don't think your argument has any merit yet, but perhaps this could change if you provided some underlying reason? Surely you can see there's nothing to gain by explaining myself to someone who thinks "my argument doesn't have any merit" (and who doesn't think that's insulting) and who keeps misrepresenting everything I say? I just said something, shared by many others, and you felt triggered by the opinion: that's fine, I don't want to convince you of anything, nor do I feel like being "educated" by you. > Maybe I am too accustomed with the idea of "keeping my identity small" and "strong opinions, loosely held", that it's natural to me to differentiate an "attack" on the argument vs the person? Well, you haven't done a good job at it, then! What do you hope to gain, at this point? Are you waiting for me to "see reason"? That's not going to happen. Surely you see sooner or later dang will intervene here and tell us to shut it down? re: insulting, passive-aggressive behavior: I re-read our exchange from the start. I was polite, even agreed with you sometimes ("I'm nodding in agreement, why do you think I think otherwise") while your tone kept getting more condescending with each reply, failing to accept my agreements and prodding in what I guess you felt was an "educational" tone. Honestly, hand on your heart, do you believe your responses were made in the best possible tone and were the best way to conduct an honest conversation? Do you believe the default position of "this argument has no merit, but maybe if this person explains his team's and company's motivations to my satisfaction I might change my mind" is a mindset that is conducive to amicable conversation? I think, if you're honest, you should admit maybe a tiny bit of misbehavior here. I also read replies you've made in other articles and you seem more reasonable. I'll chalk it up to you not being able to let go at this point, and so you must bite and nitpick at everything I say. I really think you should let it go, make your peace with not being able to convince me of your point of view, and move on to other enterprises.

rglullis 5y ago
I thought you were going to let me have the last word. ;) > someone who thinks "my argument doesn't have any merit" (and who doesn't think that's insulting) You forgot the yet. No, it's not nitpicking. Without it, it would be a mere judgmental sentence and it would make sense if you felt dismissed. With it, it is a sign that I am trying to reach for a point of agreement or an understanding. You are claiming I am the one "biting and nitpicking on everything", but you also could've given a much more charitable interpretation to this, much like you could have done it for the last 6-7 exchanges we had. And sorry, but I really don't see what is "insulting" about it. Well, at least I don't see how this is insulting if we are to have a rational conversation. This would be insulting only for those who'd be tying their self-image to any of the things being discussed. > Honestly, hand on your heart, do you believe your responses were made in the best possible tone and were the best way to conduct an honest conversation? Yes...? Maybe I am relying too much on the Socratic method, but my questions were mostly to dig in for Truth, not to grieve you. But given the way that old man died, perhaps I should try a different path to not end on the same way as he did.
- the_af 5y ago
  > "Maybe I am relying too much on the Socratic method, but my questions were mostly to dig in for Truth, not to grieve you." Oh. My. God. A Socrates complex. I give up.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    I extended a olive branch, made a self-deprecating post and your response is a metaphorical "ha-ha" finger-pointing, like an eighth-grader? I guess you were right all along, this conversation should've ended two days ago. You win the xkcd 386 today. Good night and good luck.
    - the_af 5y ago
      Thank you. Finally! Goodbye.