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> “I don’t have goals. I don’t have ambition. I only want to be attractive.” This apathetic declaration is the start of a TikTok rant that went viral for its bl

> “I don’t have goals. I don’t have ambition. I only want to be attractive.” This apathetic declaration is the start of a TikTok rant that went viral for its blatant message: to reject hard work and indulge in leisure. It’s weird to see these opinions presented as a new phenomenon. Wanting to avoid work and indulge in leisure is a tale as old as time. It’s even a common theme among characters in ancient writings. What is new is the way people with these feelings can go online and connect with millions of other people who want to talk about these feelings as if they were the real truth about life. How everyone else is wrong if they don’t see it. Many of these forums become de facto “safe spaces” where rules explicitly forbid anything other than supporting and agreeing with these perspectives. It was easy to dismiss these as fringe movements when it was incels writing unhinged rants blaming women for all of their personal problems, but for some reason the media is trying to treat the “antiwork” style rants as something deeper. Of course, this falls apart when the content and actors are examined in any remotely critical manner, as famously happened when the antiwork moderator gave a disastrous direct TV interview without the carefully crafted veneer of journalistic thinkpieces obscuring the sheer absurdity of the echo chamber they’ve built for themselves. I grew up just barely before internet access and social media were ubiquitous. There was no shortage of people eschewing work and embracing lives of leisure right out of high school or college. I knew a large number of people who embraced “couch surfing” lifestyles or international vagabonding as their way of life. As far as I can tell, the difference was that by the time they reached mid 20s they were quickly running out of peers who would tell them it was a good idea to embrace such a lifestyle forever. The real world catches up and you notice that your real-world friends who work normal jobs and “settle down” are actually having a good time (on average) while the vagabonding lifestyle gets progressively less glamorous as you get older. Not so much in the social media era, where a new set of friends and confirmatory feedback is always just a few clicks away on your phone. Want to read posts about how it’s actually someone else’s fault that you’re not successful? No problem, the internet will deliver volumes of such content.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
civilized 5y ago
A great trick to make an old pattern sound like news is to present an age-related phenomenon as a generation-related phenomenon. "Teenagers are acting like teenagers" can't be spun as news, but "Gen Z is acting like teenagers" can be.
- xmprt 5y ago
  That's mostly true however there's a lot of data that shows worrying trends. For example, millennials don't have anywhere near as much share of wealth as Gen X had at the same age. Wealth is being pretty heavily concentrated at the top of the age brackets.
  - civilized 5y ago
    I totally agree there are real concerning trends. Just earlier today we got some great examples from Rob Henderson https://robkhenderson.substack.com/p/no-one-expects-young-men-to-do-anything?s=r https://robkhenderson.substack.com/p/no-one-expects-young-me...
  - ghusto 5y ago
    Isn't wealth _always_ more concentrated in higher age brackets? It's only logical that the longer you've been around (and more dues you've paid) the more you opportunity you've had to accumulate whatever you're after. > millennials don't have anywhere near as much share of wealth as Gen X had I hate to go there, but isn't this because of their unrealistic views on work? I've heard of millennials not turning up for work because they "didn't feel like working" that day. Anecdotal, sure, but I've heard too many of these stories from too many different people for it to be co-incidence. You don't want to work, well okay that's your prerogative, but how can you then complain about getting fired?
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      > Isn't wealth _always_ more concentrated in higher age brackets? Yes. That's why the quoted factoid talks about "at this stage in their life". If you look back at boomers and genx, they had 4 and 2 times as much wealth as millennials do when they were the same age. > I've heard of millennials not turning up for work because they "didn't feel like working" that day. Why would that matter? Even if that happens sometimes it's not like it changes things on a generational level if the lowest earners get fired slightly more often.
Mezzie 5y ago
I think you're on to something, but there is one thing that I question: > As far as I can tell, the difference was that by the time they reached mid 20s they were quickly running out of peers who would tell them it was a good idea to embrace such a lifestyle forever. The real world catches up and you notice that your real-world friends who work normal jobs and “settle down” are actually having a good time (on average) while the vagabonding lifestyle gets progressively less glamorous as you get older. ARE the people working normal jobs and settling down having a good time? Interestingly, my sister and I, who now live together, took very different paths in our 20s and therefore ended up with different social circles. I was more of the studious, behave, responsible sort and so most of my friends/network is as well. My sister was a party girl (lots of raves, drugs, etc. - very much the vagabonding type of lifestyle). Now we're in our 30s and while my friends might have slightly nicer apartments, their situations aren't that different. My proper middle-class friends can't afford houses, can't afford kids (or they have to give up their career/take a huge standard of living cut), can't afford healthcare, are buried under student loans, and can't save enough for retirement. My sister's vagabonding friends can't afford houses, can't afford kids, can't afford healthcare, and can't save for retirement, but at least they got to have some fun. I'd say that the reward for behaving is much less than it used to be.
- syshum 5y ago
  >>re buried under student loans, and can't save enough for retirement. we have almost 3 years of deferment now for student loan debt, if they have not been able to improve their situations in that time this speaks more to financial ignorance than it does not being able to afford things. I wonder how many of your friends know what a 50/30/20 budget is? Do they actually track all of their expenses properly, etc.
  - Mezzie 5y ago
    One thing of note for my cohort is that those around my age (34) graduated either into or around the Great Recession. When we started school, it was all 'do what you love/any degree will do' and that changed while we were in school, so we are kind of a fucked micro-generation. Also of note is that I have a professional graduate degree, as do many of my colleagues, which tends to have higher student debt. While we've had three years of deferments and that's been awesome for people like me (and presumably you) who've been comfortably employed the whole time, a lot of people were also impacted financially by the pandemic so it ended up being a wash. Think of increased childcare costs as schools randomly closed, people who work in academia/local government being furloughed, etc. I will say that those who have done the best financially have been those who left the US. I'd also say a lot of the problem is housing. Planning can only get you so far when rent goes up every year more than your wages do. Also this doesn't address the point that my sister's friends, who are just as irresponsible, are better off.
Bourget 5y ago
Great response. I think this is really the most important underlying cause. It's common nowadays to blame it on say increase house prices, and while these are indeed very valid complaints, one shouldn't forget that these increased prices are offset by decreases in other areas. A century back, housing may have been cheap, but it was entirely normal for most of your income to be spent on food, spending whatever you could save on other necessities such as clothing. That did not stop people from working hard.
nunez 5y ago
I remember seeing Hair (the musical) in 2009 or so. The musical was written in the late 60s. The ending had an anti-work vibe. Antiwork is definitely not new.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

civilized 5y ago

A great trick to make an old pattern sound like news is to present an age-related phenomenon as a generation-related phenomenon. "Teenagers are acting like teenagers" can't be spun as news, but "Gen Z is acting like teenagers" can be.

xmprt 5y ago
That's mostly true however there's a lot of data that shows worrying trends. For example, millennials don't have anywhere near as much share of wealth as Gen X had at the same age. Wealth is being pretty heavily concentrated at the top of the age brackets.
- civilized 5y ago
  I totally agree there are real concerning trends. Just earlier today we got some great examples from Rob Henderson https://robkhenderson.substack.com/p/no-one-expects-young-men-to-do-anything?s=r https://robkhenderson.substack.com/p/no-one-expects-young-me...
- ghusto 5y ago
  Isn't wealth _always_ more concentrated in higher age brackets? It's only logical that the longer you've been around (and more dues you've paid) the more you opportunity you've had to accumulate whatever you're after. > millennials don't have anywhere near as much share of wealth as Gen X had I hate to go there, but isn't this because of their unrealistic views on work? I've heard of millennials not turning up for work because they "didn't feel like working" that day. Anecdotal, sure, but I've heard too many of these stories from too many different people for it to be co-incidence. You don't want to work, well okay that's your prerogative, but how can you then complain about getting fired?
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    > Isn't wealth _always_ more concentrated in higher age brackets? Yes. That's why the quoted factoid talks about "at this stage in their life". If you look back at boomers and genx, they had 4 and 2 times as much wealth as millennials do when they were the same age. > I've heard of millennials not turning up for work because they "didn't feel like working" that day. Why would that matter? Even if that happens sometimes it's not like it changes things on a generational level if the lowest earners get fired slightly more often.

Mezzie 5y ago

I think you're on to something, but there is one thing that I question: > As far as I can tell, the difference was that by the time they reached mid 20s they were quickly running out of peers who would tell them it was a good idea to embrace such a lifestyle forever. The real world catches up and you notice that your real-world friends who work normal jobs and “settle down” are actually having a good time (on average) while the vagabonding lifestyle gets progressively less glamorous as you get older. ARE the people working normal jobs and settling down having a good time? Interestingly, my sister and I, who now live together, took very different paths in our 20s and therefore ended up with different social circles. I was more of the studious, behave, responsible sort and so most of my friends/network is as well. My sister was a party girl (lots of raves, drugs, etc. - very much the vagabonding type of lifestyle). Now we're in our 30s and while my friends might have slightly nicer apartments, their situations aren't that different. My proper middle-class friends can't afford houses, can't afford kids (or they have to give up their career/take a huge standard of living cut), can't afford healthcare, are buried under student loans, and can't save enough for retirement. My sister's vagabonding friends can't afford houses, can't afford kids, can't afford healthcare, and can't save for retirement, but at least they got to have some fun. I'd say that the reward for behaving is much less than it used to be.

syshum 5y ago
>>re buried under student loans, and can't save enough for retirement. we have almost 3 years of deferment now for student loan debt, if they have not been able to improve their situations in that time this speaks more to financial ignorance than it does not being able to afford things. I wonder how many of your friends know what a 50/30/20 budget is? Do they actually track all of their expenses properly, etc.
- Mezzie 5y ago
  One thing of note for my cohort is that those around my age (34) graduated either into or around the Great Recession. When we started school, it was all 'do what you love/any degree will do' and that changed while we were in school, so we are kind of a fucked micro-generation. Also of note is that I have a professional graduate degree, as do many of my colleagues, which tends to have higher student debt. While we've had three years of deferments and that's been awesome for people like me (and presumably you) who've been comfortably employed the whole time, a lot of people were also impacted financially by the pandemic so it ended up being a wash. Think of increased childcare costs as schools randomly closed, people who work in academia/local government being furloughed, etc. I will say that those who have done the best financially have been those who left the US. I'd also say a lot of the problem is housing. Planning can only get you so far when rent goes up every year more than your wages do. Also this doesn't address the point that my sister's friends, who are just as irresponsible, are better off.

Bourget 5y ago

Great response. I think this is really the most important underlying cause. It's common nowadays to blame it on say increase house prices, and while these are indeed very valid complaints, one shouldn't forget that these increased prices are offset by decreases in other areas. A century back, housing may have been cheap, but it was entirely normal for most of your income to be spent on food, spending whatever you could save on other necessities such as clothing. That did not stop people from working hard.

nunez 5y ago

I remember seeing Hair (the musical) in 2009 or so. The musical was written in the late 60s. The ending had an anti-work vibe. Antiwork is definitely not new.