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Holy crap I never imagined so much weird Ward Cleaver ideology from HN. This thread is insane to read. I expected this article to be universally eviscerated, si

Holy crap I never imagined so much weird Ward Cleaver ideology from HN. This thread is insane to read. I expected this article to be universally eviscerated, since it's tons of conjecture and bad data badly interpreted, but there's a ton of people who apparently feel like their male identity is attached to some bizarre archetype. Some sort of fucked up Form for men floating out in the ether that looks like a cross between Archie Bunker and John Wayne.

zmgsabst 4y ago
Yet, you’ve taken this as a chance to demean an entire thread rather than engage in good faith and explore that difference of opinion. Do you think that kind of reflexive insulting dismissal is… …a healthy response? …a positive contribution? …a symptom of what they’re trying to explain?
- libraryatnight 4y ago
  That's the trouble, they don't know what they're trying to explain. This thread is a reverberation chamber for irrational masculine fear. A bunch of people trying to pinpoint something that may not even exist, and choosing to look backward for familiarity. You can't engage with that. Not online. Sometimes the healthy response is "This shit is nuts, I'm going to go talk to people in person and touch some grass."
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    I think you’re calling it “irrational” to give yourself an excuse to engage in bad faith — such as using demeaning language towards a large group of people. That gives you an “out” from having to understand something that might conflict with a belief you hold or make you uncomfortable.
    - libraryatnight 4y ago
      Or maybe it's just irrational. Not saying the feelings expressed here don't point to a very real issue, but there's no chance in any meaningful engagement with the vast majority of the comments in this thread. You have a bunch of scared men making emotional arguments that somehow their entire self worth and sense of direction relies on society demanding something of them. The something in most cases being rooted in nostalgia, either for times when men rode horses, or when it was more acceptable to slap a woman around - but don't worry, that didn't happen much, because it was also a time of tighter extended family and thus other men around to protect and avenge her. Boyish fantasies of cowboys, knights, and getting to beat up your brother-in-law if he hit your sister and left a mark. It doesn't get less insane as you continue reading. By all means let's talk about what men are going through and feeling, let's treat it seriously, but let's not scramble in terror backwards.
      - zmgsabst 4y ago
        > By all means let's talk about what men are going through and feeling, let's treat it seriously Your post comes across as you strawmanning and demeaning men doing just that — to justify your own irrational dismissal of what they’re actually saying. Your entire post is a mocking strawman.
      - raxxorraxor 4y ago
        > a very real issue Please explain. You have suggested that some men have a male identity crisis. How does that express? Currently it sounds like you have a problem with some answers more than the common answer of this thread has with the world.

zmgsabst 4y ago

Yet, you’ve taken this as a chance to demean an entire thread rather than engage in good faith and explore that difference of opinion. Do you think that kind of reflexive insulting dismissal is… …a healthy response? …a positive contribution? …a symptom of what they’re trying to explain?

libraryatnight 4y ago
That's the trouble, they don't know what they're trying to explain. This thread is a reverberation chamber for irrational masculine fear. A bunch of people trying to pinpoint something that may not even exist, and choosing to look backward for familiarity. You can't engage with that. Not online. Sometimes the healthy response is "This shit is nuts, I'm going to go talk to people in person and touch some grass."
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  I think you’re calling it “irrational” to give yourself an excuse to engage in bad faith — such as using demeaning language towards a large group of people. That gives you an “out” from having to understand something that might conflict with a belief you hold or make you uncomfortable.
  - libraryatnight 4y ago
    Or maybe it's just irrational. Not saying the feelings expressed here don't point to a very real issue, but there's no chance in any meaningful engagement with the vast majority of the comments in this thread. You have a bunch of scared men making emotional arguments that somehow their entire self worth and sense of direction relies on society demanding something of them. The something in most cases being rooted in nostalgia, either for times when men rode horses, or when it was more acceptable to slap a woman around - but don't worry, that didn't happen much, because it was also a time of tighter extended family and thus other men around to protect and avenge her. Boyish fantasies of cowboys, knights, and getting to beat up your brother-in-law if he hit your sister and left a mark. It doesn't get less insane as you continue reading. By all means let's talk about what men are going through and feeling, let's treat it seriously, but let's not scramble in terror backwards.
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      > By all means let's talk about what men are going through and feeling, let's treat it seriously Your post comes across as you strawmanning and demeaning men doing just that — to justify your own irrational dismissal of what they’re actually saying. Your entire post is a mocking strawman.
    - raxxorraxor 4y ago
      > a very real issue Please explain. You have suggested that some men have a male identity crisis. How does that express? Currently it sounds like you have a problem with some answers more than the common answer of this thread has with the world.