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Just an FYI, you and the person that's responding to you are talking about the same people but use two different words for them. A real leftist ideological grou

by kodah 5y ago

Just an FYI, you and the person that's responding to you are talking about the same people but use two different words for them. A real leftist ideological group doesn't exist in the US; progressives are not that for certain. To the right, however, a leftist is a US progressive.

throwaway894345 5y ago
Progressives and leftists are approximately the same thing in US politics, not just among the right (the American right doesn’t even distinguish between liberals and progressives—it just calls everyone left of center “liberals”).
- kodah 5y ago
  Not at all; talk to any global leftist and they'll tell you US progressive policy and values don't match up with theirs at all. Anecdotally, I've known these kinds of folks for a while through FOSS and IRC. I'm also dating an actual leftist.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    You’re observing that political labels vary semantically between political systems. “liberal” in the UK has a different meaning than in the US. Similarly, “leftist” means something different in an American context than it does in your “global” context (although I suspect “global” here is really only accurate for Europe, but that’s a debate for another day).
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > “liberal” in the UK has a different meaning than in the US. Liberal doesn't have any consistent meaning in the US. (Like, nearly every point on the spectrum uses it differently > Similarly, “leftist” means something different in an American context than it does in your “global” context Not particularly. Except in the propaganda of the American Right, where it is one of a pile of indistinct labels like Marxist, liberal, Communist, woke, critical race theory, etc., applied indiscriminately to everything they disagree with.
      - kodah 5y ago
        It's a word salad all around. Folks on the US left exhibit similar symptoms when talking about the right. I responded initially because I think distinctualizing US progressives and global progressives is important. I don't want to see US progressives, their policy, or their values gain more traction; I am on board for a party that reflects global progressivism, it's policies, and it's values. It does seem like there's a split on this thread about - whether the US progressives relate to global progressives in any way except by name - how the right views the political spectrum by name of everything to the left of it
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        > It's a word salad all around. Exactly. > Folks on the US left exhibit similar symptoms when talking about the right. Yeah, for a good while there, everyone who wasn't a staunch progressive was described as uniformly "far-right". > I responded initially because I think distinctualizing US progressives and global progressives is important. I don't want to see US progressives, their policy, or their values gain more traction; I am on board for a party that reflects global progressivism, it's policies, and it's values. I disagree with your politics, but I agree on the importance of this distinction. > whether the US progressives relate to global progressives in any way except by name I think US progressives are roughly "global progressives" plus identity stuff. Some US progressives care more about identity than economics, but there aren't any US progressives who flat-out reject left-wing economics even if they don't care as much about it, and there are relatively few US progressives who flat-out reject left-wing identity doctrine even if they don't think it's terribly important (e.g., Sanders). > how the right views the political spectrum by name of everything to the left of it The right generally doesn't distinguish between different "bands" (in the sense of a frequency band in a frequency spectrum) on the left of the spectrum any more than the left distinguishes between different "bands" on the right of the spectrum. Some right-wingers use "leftist" for everyone left of center and others use "liberal" for left-of-center, but in both cases they're using a single term for "left-of-center" and thus failing to distinguish. You see the same thing with people on the left referring to the right homogeneously as "conservative" or "right-wing" or "far-right". Few on either side recognize the nuanced beliefs on the other side.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> A real leftist ideological group doesn't exist in the US Yes, it does. Because of the electoral system’s strong pressure to duopoly, there isn’t a substantial real leftist party in the US, but there is a real leftist ideological group. > progressives are not that for certain US progressives overlap with, but are not the same as, the left. > To the right, however, a leftist is a US progressive. To the American Right, a leftist is a Democrat, including a center -right neoliberal corporate capitalist democrat.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  This is basically correct, apart from the “center-right neoliberal corporate capitalist” babble. :)

by kodah 5y ago

throwaway894345 5y ago

Progressives and leftists are approximately the same thing in US politics, not just among the right (the American right doesn’t even distinguish between liberals and progressives—it just calls everyone left of center “liberals”).

kodah 5y ago
Not at all; talk to any global leftist and they'll tell you US progressive policy and values don't match up with theirs at all. Anecdotally, I've known these kinds of folks for a while through FOSS and IRC. I'm also dating an actual leftist.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  You’re observing that political labels vary semantically between political systems. “liberal” in the UK has a different meaning than in the US. Similarly, “leftist” means something different in an American context than it does in your “global” context (although I suspect “global” here is really only accurate for Europe, but that’s a debate for another day).
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > “liberal” in the UK has a different meaning than in the US. Liberal doesn't have any consistent meaning in the US. (Like, nearly every point on the spectrum uses it differently > Similarly, “leftist” means something different in an American context than it does in your “global” context Not particularly. Except in the propaganda of the American Right, where it is one of a pile of indistinct labels like Marxist, liberal, Communist, woke, critical race theory, etc., applied indiscriminately to everything they disagree with.
    - kodah 5y ago
      It's a word salad all around. Folks on the US left exhibit similar symptoms when talking about the right. I responded initially because I think distinctualizing US progressives and global progressives is important. I don't want to see US progressives, their policy, or their values gain more traction; I am on board for a party that reflects global progressivism, it's policies, and it's values. It does seem like there's a split on this thread about - whether the US progressives relate to global progressives in any way except by name - how the right views the political spectrum by name of everything to the left of it
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        > It's a word salad all around. Exactly. > Folks on the US left exhibit similar symptoms when talking about the right. Yeah, for a good while there, everyone who wasn't a staunch progressive was described as uniformly "far-right". > I responded initially because I think distinctualizing US progressives and global progressives is important. I don't want to see US progressives, their policy, or their values gain more traction; I am on board for a party that reflects global progressivism, it's policies, and it's values. I disagree with your politics, but I agree on the importance of this distinction. > whether the US progressives relate to global progressives in any way except by name I think US progressives are roughly "global progressives" plus identity stuff. Some US progressives care more about identity than economics, but there aren't any US progressives who flat-out reject left-wing economics even if they don't care as much about it, and there are relatively few US progressives who flat-out reject left-wing identity doctrine even if they don't think it's terribly important (e.g., Sanders). > how the right views the political spectrum by name of everything to the left of it The right generally doesn't distinguish between different "bands" (in the sense of a frequency band in a frequency spectrum) on the left of the spectrum any more than the left distinguishes between different "bands" on the right of the spectrum. Some right-wingers use "leftist" for everyone left of center and others use "liberal" for left-of-center, but in both cases they're using a single term for "left-of-center" and thus failing to distinguish. You see the same thing with people on the left referring to the right homogeneously as "conservative" or "right-wing" or "far-right". Few on either side recognize the nuanced beliefs on the other side.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> A real leftist ideological group doesn't exist in the US Yes, it does. Because of the electoral system’s strong pressure to duopoly, there isn’t a substantial real leftist party in the US, but there is a real leftist ideological group. > progressives are not that for certain US progressives overlap with, but are not the same as, the left. > To the right, however, a leftist is a US progressive. To the American Right, a leftist is a Democrat, including a center -right neoliberal corporate capitalist democrat.

throwaway894345 5y ago
This is basically correct, apart from the “center-right neoliberal corporate capitalist” babble. :)