3 ms·

Sounds like the ancients had similar thoughts as “We will not declare her dead until she is warm and dead.”: https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0411.htm

by xaedes 4y ago

Sounds like the ancients had similar thoughts as “We will not declare her dead until she is warm and dead.”: https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0411.htm https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0411.htm From The Zend Avesta, Part I - FARGARD V. 10 (34). O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! If the summer is past and the winter has come, what shall the worshippers of Mazda do? Ahura Mazda answered: 'In every house? in every borough, they shall raise three small houses for the dead.' 11 (37). O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! How large shall be those houses for the dead? Ahura Mazda answered: ‘Large enough not to strike the skull, or the feet, or the hands of the man, if he should stand erect, and hold out his feet, and stretch out his hands: such shall be, according to the law, the houses for the dead. 12 (41). ‘And they shall let the lifeless body lie there, for two nights, or for three nights, or a month long, until the birds-begin to fly, the plants to grow, the floods to flow, and the wind to dry up the waters from off the earth.

Mikeb85 4y ago
> the ancients had similar thoughts as “We will not declare her dead until she is warm and dead.” I mean, they lived in the aftermath of an ice age...
DoreenMichele 4y ago
The traditional wake is probably rooted in watching the "dead" body for a few days to see if it wakes up before burying them. There can be myriad things that make someone seem dead temporarily, such as consuming improperly prepared fish (I think puffer fish?).
- edanm 4y ago
  Interesting, I'd never heard this and can't seem to find a reference to it. Btw, in Jewish tradition, burial should happen as soon as possible, usually the same day or the day after.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    I'm not entirely sure where I got the idea. It's perhaps somewhat speculative on my part based in part on the word used for such things. Why would people call the viewing of the body a wake if they weren't hoping the person would awaken? I know I've discussed it with people and I know I've read of incidents where someone was thought to be dead and wasn't. One story was about a child that was thought to be dead during an epidemic and the family was unable to find a box big enough to bury him. They bent his legs up sideways to fit him in the too short box they had. On the one hand, he lived because they only bent his legs up (instead of cutting them off to make him fit). On the other hand, he never walked right because of it. He was permanently maimed. The Bible also has a passage where Jesus says "Why do you weep? She isn't dead. She only sleeps." And he tells the girl to arise and she opens her eyes. So we have records of such incidents going back at least 2000 years. And we have a tradition of viewing the body before burying it. It seems likely to me these things are not unrelated though I'm not sure we really have anything that explicitly says "The historical origin of the practice is rooted in this." So to be clear this is possibly opinion not something I learned in some history class or other.
    - thih9 4y ago
      > Why would people call the viewing of the body a wake if they weren't hoping the person would awaken? Wikipedia says: "While the modern usage of the verb wake is 'become or stay alert', a wake for the dead harks back to the vigil, 'watch' or 'guard' of earlier times. It is a misconception that people at a wake are waiting in case the deceased should 'wake up'." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony)
- thih9 4y ago
  > The traditional wake is probably rooted in watching the "dead" body for a few days to see if it wakes up before burying them As noted elsewhere, according to wikipedia this is a misconception. Quote: "While the modern usage of the verb wake is 'become or stay alert', a wake for the dead harks back to the vigil, 'watch' or 'guard' of earlier times. It is a misconception that people at a wake are waiting in case the deceased should 'wake up'.", source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony) .
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    Thank you. I missed that when I checked Wikipedia earlier. Wikipedia is known to have inaccuracies at times and it's surprisingly hard to find good sources on this subject. FWIW, Snopes disagrees in this fascinating piece about known cases of people being buried alive: The practice of ‘waking’ the dead (having someone sit with the deceased from the time of death until burial in case he ‘wakes up’) began out of this concern. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/just-dying-to-get-out/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/just-dying-to-get-out/
alehlopeh 4y ago
Sounds like you’re referring to a pretty specific brand of “the ancients” and I’m guessing it’s not the ones from Stargate. Unfortunately when someone refers to “the ancients” in this way, my brain automatically assumes they are into some wacky new age stuff.
- xaedes 4y ago
  Specifically I was referring to the Parsis and their Zoroastrian teachings. The introduction to the quoted book has put it in those words: https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0402.htm#page_xi https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0402.htm#page_xi The Zend-Avesta is the sacred book of the Parsis, that is to say, of the few remaining followers of that religion which feigned over Persia at the time when the second successor of Mohammed overthrew the Sassanian dynasty [At the battle of Nihâvand (642 A.C.)], and which has been called Dualism, or Mazdeism, or Magism, or Zoroastrianism, or Fire-worship, according as its main tenet, or its supreme God [Ahura Mazda], or its priests, or its supposed founder, or its apparent object of worship has been most kept in view. > Indeed, they are not the Stargate ancients. But in the same book they write about some other kind of "golden ring" with a most interesting coldness related story: https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0408.htm https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0408.htm 7 (17) 2. Then I, Ahura Mazda, brought two implements unto him: a golden ring and a poniard inlaid with gold. Behold, here Yima bears the royal sway! 8 (20). Thus, under the sway of Yima, three hundred winters passed away, and the earth was replenished with flocks and herds, with men and dogs and birds and with red blazing fires, and there was no more room for flocks, herds, and men. 9. Then I warned the fair Yima, saying: 'O fair Yima, son of Vîvanghat, the earth has become full of flocks and herds, of men and dogs and birds and of red blazing fires, and there is no more room for flocks, herds, and men.' 10. Then Yima stepped forward, towards the luminous space, southwards, to meet the sun, and (afterwards) he pressed the earth with the golden ring, and bored it with the poniard, speaking thus: 'O Spenta Ârmaiti, kindly open asunder and stretch thyself afar, to bear flocks and herds and men.' 11. And Yima made the earth grow larger by one-third than it was before, and there came flocks and herds and men, at his will and wish, as many as he wished. 12 (23). Thus, under the sway of Yima, six hundred winters passed away, and the earth was replenished with flocks and herds, with men and dogs and birds and with red blazing fires, and there was no more room for flocks, herds, and men. > this process of using the golden ring is used multiple times, with a total of 1800 winters passing > but it is not over: 22 (46). And Ahura Mazda spake unto Yima, saying: 'O fair Yima, son of Vîvanghat! Upon the material world the fatal winters are going to fall, that shall bring the fierce, foul frost; upon the material world the fatal winters are going to fall, that shall make snow-flakes fall thick, even an aredvî deep on the highest tops of mountains. 23 (52). And all the three sorts of beasts shall perish, those that live in the wilderness, and those that live on the tops of the mountains, and those that live in the bosom of the dale, under the shelter of stables. 24 (57). Before that winter, those fields would bear plenty of grass for cattle: now with floods that stream, with snows that melt, it will seem a happy land in the world, the land wherein footprints even of sheep may still be seen. 25 (61). Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, and thither bring the seeds of sheep and oxen, of men, of dogs, of birds, and of red blazing fires. Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, to be an abode for men; a Vara, long. as a riding-ground on every side of the square, to be a fold for flocks. 26 (65). There thou shalt make waters flow in a bed a hâthra long; there thou shalt settle birds, by the ever-green banks that bear never-failing food. There thou shalt establish dwelling places, consisting of a house with a balcony, a courtyard, and a gallery. 27 (70). Thither thou shalt bring the seeds of men and women, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth; thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of cattle, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth. 28 (74). Thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of tree, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth; thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of fruit, the fullest of food and sweetest of odour. All those seeds shalt thou bring, two of ever), kind, to be kept inexhaustible there, so long as those men shall stay in the Vara. 29 (80). There shall be no humpbacked, none bulged forward there; no impotent, no lunatic; no poverty, no lying; no meanness, no jealousy; no decayed tooth, no leprous to be confined, nor any of the brands wherewith Angra Mainyu stamps the bodies of mortals. 30 (87). In the largest part of the place thou shalt make nine streets, six in the middle part, three in the smallest. To the streets of the largest part thou shalt bring a thousand seeds of men and women; to the streets of the middle part, six hundred; to the streets of the smallest part, three hundred. That Vara thou shalt seal up with the golden ring, and thou shalt make a door, and a window self-shining within.' > I don't know that that golden ring represents, maybe the sun?

by xaedes 4y ago

Mikeb85 4y ago

> the ancients had similar thoughts as “We will not declare her dead until she is warm and dead.” I mean, they lived in the aftermath of an ice age...

DoreenMichele 4y ago

The traditional wake is probably rooted in watching the "dead" body for a few days to see if it wakes up before burying them. There can be myriad things that make someone seem dead temporarily, such as consuming improperly prepared fish (I think puffer fish?).

edanm 4y ago
Interesting, I'd never heard this and can't seem to find a reference to it. Btw, in Jewish tradition, burial should happen as soon as possible, usually the same day or the day after.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  I'm not entirely sure where I got the idea. It's perhaps somewhat speculative on my part based in part on the word used for such things. Why would people call the viewing of the body a wake if they weren't hoping the person would awaken? I know I've discussed it with people and I know I've read of incidents where someone was thought to be dead and wasn't. One story was about a child that was thought to be dead during an epidemic and the family was unable to find a box big enough to bury him. They bent his legs up sideways to fit him in the too short box they had. On the one hand, he lived because they only bent his legs up (instead of cutting them off to make him fit). On the other hand, he never walked right because of it. He was permanently maimed. The Bible also has a passage where Jesus says "Why do you weep? She isn't dead. She only sleeps." And he tells the girl to arise and she opens her eyes. So we have records of such incidents going back at least 2000 years. And we have a tradition of viewing the body before burying it. It seems likely to me these things are not unrelated though I'm not sure we really have anything that explicitly says "The historical origin of the practice is rooted in this." So to be clear this is possibly opinion not something I learned in some history class or other.
  - thih9 4y ago
    > Why would people call the viewing of the body a wake if they weren't hoping the person would awaken? Wikipedia says: "While the modern usage of the verb wake is 'become or stay alert', a wake for the dead harks back to the vigil, 'watch' or 'guard' of earlier times. It is a misconception that people at a wake are waiting in case the deceased should 'wake up'." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony)
thih9 4y ago
> The traditional wake is probably rooted in watching the "dead" body for a few days to see if it wakes up before burying them As noted elsewhere, according to wikipedia this is a misconception. Quote: "While the modern usage of the verb wake is 'become or stay alert', a wake for the dead harks back to the vigil, 'watch' or 'guard' of earlier times. It is a misconception that people at a wake are waiting in case the deceased should 'wake up'.", source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony) .
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  Thank you. I missed that when I checked Wikipedia earlier. Wikipedia is known to have inaccuracies at times and it's surprisingly hard to find good sources on this subject. FWIW, Snopes disagrees in this fascinating piece about known cases of people being buried alive: The practice of ‘waking’ the dead (having someone sit with the deceased from the time of death until burial in case he ‘wakes up’) began out of this concern. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/just-dying-to-get-out/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/just-dying-to-get-out/

alehlopeh 4y ago

Sounds like you’re referring to a pretty specific brand of “the ancients” and I’m guessing it’s not the ones from Stargate. Unfortunately when someone refers to “the ancients” in this way, my brain automatically assumes they are into some wacky new age stuff.

xaedes 4y ago
Specifically I was referring to the Parsis and their Zoroastrian teachings. The introduction to the quoted book has put it in those words: https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0402.htm#page_xi https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0402.htm#page_xi The Zend-Avesta is the sacred book of the Parsis, that is to say, of the few remaining followers of that religion which feigned over Persia at the time when the second successor of Mohammed overthrew the Sassanian dynasty [At the battle of Nihâvand (642 A.C.)], and which has been called Dualism, or Mazdeism, or Magism, or Zoroastrianism, or Fire-worship, according as its main tenet, or its supreme God [Ahura Mazda], or its priests, or its supposed founder, or its apparent object of worship has been most kept in view. > Indeed, they are not the Stargate ancients. But in the same book they write about some other kind of "golden ring" with a most interesting coldness related story: https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0408.htm https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0408.htm 7 (17) 2. Then I, Ahura Mazda, brought two implements unto him: a golden ring and a poniard inlaid with gold. Behold, here Yima bears the royal sway! 8 (20). Thus, under the sway of Yima, three hundred winters passed away, and the earth was replenished with flocks and herds, with men and dogs and birds and with red blazing fires, and there was no more room for flocks, herds, and men. 9. Then I warned the fair Yima, saying: 'O fair Yima, son of Vîvanghat, the earth has become full of flocks and herds, of men and dogs and birds and of red blazing fires, and there is no more room for flocks, herds, and men.' 10. Then Yima stepped forward, towards the luminous space, southwards, to meet the sun, and (afterwards) he pressed the earth with the golden ring, and bored it with the poniard, speaking thus: 'O Spenta Ârmaiti, kindly open asunder and stretch thyself afar, to bear flocks and herds and men.' 11. And Yima made the earth grow larger by one-third than it was before, and there came flocks and herds and men, at his will and wish, as many as he wished. 12 (23). Thus, under the sway of Yima, six hundred winters passed away, and the earth was replenished with flocks and herds, with men and dogs and birds and with red blazing fires, and there was no more room for flocks, herds, and men. > this process of using the golden ring is used multiple times, with a total of 1800 winters passing > but it is not over: 22 (46). And Ahura Mazda spake unto Yima, saying: 'O fair Yima, son of Vîvanghat! Upon the material world the fatal winters are going to fall, that shall bring the fierce, foul frost; upon the material world the fatal winters are going to fall, that shall make snow-flakes fall thick, even an aredvî deep on the highest tops of mountains. 23 (52). And all the three sorts of beasts shall perish, those that live in the wilderness, and those that live on the tops of the mountains, and those that live in the bosom of the dale, under the shelter of stables. 24 (57). Before that winter, those fields would bear plenty of grass for cattle: now with floods that stream, with snows that melt, it will seem a happy land in the world, the land wherein footprints even of sheep may still be seen. 25 (61). Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, and thither bring the seeds of sheep and oxen, of men, of dogs, of birds, and of red blazing fires. Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, to be an abode for men; a Vara, long. as a riding-ground on every side of the square, to be a fold for flocks. 26 (65). There thou shalt make waters flow in a bed a hâthra long; there thou shalt settle birds, by the ever-green banks that bear never-failing food. There thou shalt establish dwelling places, consisting of a house with a balcony, a courtyard, and a gallery. 27 (70). Thither thou shalt bring the seeds of men and women, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth; thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of cattle, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth. 28 (74). Thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of tree, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth; thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of fruit, the fullest of food and sweetest of odour. All those seeds shalt thou bring, two of ever), kind, to be kept inexhaustible there, so long as those men shall stay in the Vara. 29 (80). There shall be no humpbacked, none bulged forward there; no impotent, no lunatic; no poverty, no lying; no meanness, no jealousy; no decayed tooth, no leprous to be confined, nor any of the brands wherewith Angra Mainyu stamps the bodies of mortals. 30 (87). In the largest part of the place thou shalt make nine streets, six in the middle part, three in the smallest. To the streets of the largest part thou shalt bring a thousand seeds of men and women; to the streets of the middle part, six hundred; to the streets of the smallest part, three hundred. That Vara thou shalt seal up with the golden ring, and thou shalt make a door, and a window self-shining within.' > I don't know that that golden ring represents, maybe the sun?