3 ms·

Yeah just hand over any territory anyone ever makes a weak claim to just to avoid conflict despite the wishes of the people who live there. Has your "Z" bumper

by argsnd 4y ago

Yeah just hand over any territory anyone ever makes a weak claim to just to avoid conflict despite the wishes of the people who live there. Has your "Z" bumper sticker arrived in the mail yet?

WastingMyTime89 4y ago
Let’s conveniently forget that Gibraltar is actually territorially part of Spain, most essential facilities are provided by Spain, that a significant proportion of jobs necessary to it are held by Spaniard and that Gibraltar economy is due to it being a tax haven which would stop if it was part of Spain. Oversee territories are a shame on every countries that still hold them be it the UK or France.
- blibble 4y ago
  > Let’s conveniently forget that Gibraltar is actually territorially part of Spain it is most definitely not it handed it over in the peace treaty that ended the war > The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever. full text here: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Peace_and_Friendship_Treaty_of_Utrecht_between_Spain_and_Great_Britain https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Peace_and_Friendship_Treaty_o... > Oversee territories are a shame on every countries that still hold them be it the UK or France. meanwhile Spain has two enclaves of the exact same type of in Morocco, Ceuta and Melilla
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    > it handed it over in the peace treaty that ended the war The fact that it was taken by force in 1701 didn’t magically teleport it from Spain to anywhere where it made sense for it to be part of the UK. > meanwhile Spain has two enclaves of the exact same type of in Morocco, Ceuta and Melilla It’s not less shameful.
    - blibble 4y ago
      as you appear to be some alien from beyond the solar system on Earth: previously political boundaries were set on the outcome of armed conflicts Great Britain won the last one against Spain, and gained Gibraltar as a result over 300 years ago these days we are slightly more enlightened and tend to mainly believe in self-determination the people living in Gibraltar wish to remain British giving them up to Spain against their wishes would be an act of imperialism (commonly frowned on in the 21st century)
sofixa 4y ago
How is the Spanish claim on Gibraltar weak? They border it, it was taken from them at gunpoint, and it's extremely dependent on Spain for services and labour.
- anamax 4y ago
  Sharing a border isn't a claim. (France and Spain share a border - which one has a claim as a result?) Every border is a result of "taken from them at gunpoint." (It's not hard to find folks who had large pieces of Spain taken from them at gunpoint.) Dependency isn't a claim. It is, however, a tool for taking.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    You're misrepresenting the situation. Gibraltar was Spanish for a few centuries ( after the Reconquista), and after it lost a war the UK annexed it. It's not some colony far away, for Spain, it's a part of the Iberian peninsula, and is entirely dependent on Spain. It's like Hong Kong, in a sense. Land the UK took because it could from a weaker country due to its strategic location, but which is mostly integrated with it's former country in terms of labour and services.
    - anamax 4y ago
      Yes, Spain lost Gibraltar in a war. Pretty much every border was decided by war, so why is that border different? ("we had it a long time" isn't a difference.) Yes, Gibraltar is dependent on Spain for services. As I pointed out, that's a tool for changing the border. (Blockades are an act of war, so that would be "at gunpoint.") However, that dependence isn't an argument that the border is "wrong".

by argsnd 4y ago

Yeah just hand over any territory anyone ever makes a weak claim to just to avoid conflict despite the wishes of the people who live there. Has your "Z" bumper sticker arrived in the mail yet?

WastingMyTime89 4y ago

Let’s conveniently forget that Gibraltar is actually territorially part of Spain, most essential facilities are provided by Spain, that a significant proportion of jobs necessary to it are held by Spaniard and that Gibraltar economy is due to it being a tax haven which would stop if it was part of Spain. Oversee territories are a shame on every countries that still hold them be it the UK or France.

blibble 4y ago
> Let’s conveniently forget that Gibraltar is actually territorially part of Spain it is most definitely not it handed it over in the peace treaty that ended the war > The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever. full text here: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Peace_and_Friendship_Treaty_of_Utrecht_between_Spain_and_Great_Britain https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Peace_and_Friendship_Treaty_o... > Oversee territories are a shame on every countries that still hold them be it the UK or France. meanwhile Spain has two enclaves of the exact same type of in Morocco, Ceuta and Melilla
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  > it handed it over in the peace treaty that ended the war The fact that it was taken by force in 1701 didn’t magically teleport it from Spain to anywhere where it made sense for it to be part of the UK. > meanwhile Spain has two enclaves of the exact same type of in Morocco, Ceuta and Melilla It’s not less shameful.
  - blibble 4y ago
    as you appear to be some alien from beyond the solar system on Earth: previously political boundaries were set on the outcome of armed conflicts Great Britain won the last one against Spain, and gained Gibraltar as a result over 300 years ago these days we are slightly more enlightened and tend to mainly believe in self-determination the people living in Gibraltar wish to remain British giving them up to Spain against their wishes would be an act of imperialism (commonly frowned on in the 21st century)

sofixa 4y ago

How is the Spanish claim on Gibraltar weak? They border it, it was taken from them at gunpoint, and it's extremely dependent on Spain for services and labour.

anamax 4y ago
Sharing a border isn't a claim. (France and Spain share a border - which one has a claim as a result?) Every border is a result of "taken from them at gunpoint." (It's not hard to find folks who had large pieces of Spain taken from them at gunpoint.) Dependency isn't a claim. It is, however, a tool for taking.
- sofixa 4y ago
  You're misrepresenting the situation. Gibraltar was Spanish for a few centuries ( after the Reconquista), and after it lost a war the UK annexed it. It's not some colony far away, for Spain, it's a part of the Iberian peninsula, and is entirely dependent on Spain. It's like Hong Kong, in a sense. Land the UK took because it could from a weaker country due to its strategic location, but which is mostly integrated with it's former country in terms of labour and services.
  - anamax 4y ago
    Yes, Spain lost Gibraltar in a war. Pretty much every border was decided by war, so why is that border different? ("we had it a long time" isn't a difference.) Yes, Gibraltar is dependent on Spain for services. As I pointed out, that's a tool for changing the border. (Blockades are an act of war, so that would be "at gunpoint.") However, that dependence isn't an argument that the border is "wrong".