5 ms·

So much of the elite wealthy class and their media sock puppets on both sides of the traditional left/right political divide are dedicated to pushing the identi

So much of the elite wealthy class and their media sock puppets on both sides of the traditional left/right political divide are dedicated to pushing the identitarian culture war theme - because what they don't want to deal with is something like this: "Creating an economy where men can attain dignity and social respect."

mola 5y ago
This! Most of the flaming identity cultural wars are basically a distraction. The problem as always is class, and elites vieing for control. Yes progressive values are a thing, but its media representation is nuts, on purpose. The it's us vs them narrative leads to subjucating all values to pure "survival". This promotes long term irrationality. The powers at be know this and capitalize it. On both "sides". In my biased opinion this sort of Machiavellism is more common with conservatives, but its definitely common enough in non conservatives.
- dudul 5y ago
  Why do you think it's more common with conservatives? You said it yourself, cultural wars are just distraction to keep the elite in power and talk about everything except classes. People in power don't care about conservatives or liberals, they just pick a team and play the game.
  - hotpotamus 5y ago
    Which party has been dedicated to cutting the taxes of the wealthy for decades? As the saying goes, show me your budget and I'll show you your values.
    - fallingknife 5y ago
      Which party is dedicated to importing massive numbers of cheap workers from other countries to allow business owners to undercut working class wages and pocket more profits?
      - hotpotamus 5y ago
        Umm... The one that uses immigrants as scapegoats for votes and then does nothing to effectively regulate the businesses that import cheap workers? Take for instance the Trump family - https://www.npr.org/2017/01/12/509179558/trump-winery-is-seeking-visas-for-foreign-workers https://www.npr.org/2017/01/12/509179558/trump-winery-is-see...
      - skinnymuch 5y ago
        What about all the rich or powerful conservatives who end up having cheap workers brought here to work at their homes and so on?
      - quintushoratius 5y ago
        I suspect that you're implying that the answer is the US Democratic party, but it's really not. By making immigration-without-visas a criminal offense, rather than an administrative one, the anti-immigration movement serves to drive immigrants (but not immigration) underground and makes their labor cheaper. It's a lot like prostitution: since prostitution is a criminal offense, all prostitutes are criminals. They can be abused freely because they cannot go to the authorities without certainty being punished themselves. By the same token, an undocumented immigrant cannot contact authorities to report they're underpaid, stolen from, beaten, imprisoned, or enslaved. (These are all things that happen regularly.) Their "criminal" status is used as a cudgel to abuse them. Keep in mind, these are all people that just want to work in exchange for money, and they're responding to people and companies that want to hire their services. The "illegal immigration" posturing is just the buyers' way of artificially depressing prices.
  - PartiallyTyped 5y ago
    Because their base consists of people who: - are severely uneducated. Consider distribution of political alignments in Academia. Consider the fact that antivaxxers and conspiracy theorists are in their overwhelming majority politically conservative and authoritarian. Belief in conspiracy theories is highly correlated with an impoverished interpersonal functioning, such as interpersonal paranoia, narcissism, disagreeableness, insecure attachment and Machiavellianism [1]. Impoverished interpersonal skills signify lack of empathy, which fuels dehumanization, and enables exploitation of others. - grew up hammered by propaganda and the red scare, where anything that resembles social welfare is considered communism even if they themselves are dependent on such systems. Accepting that one needs help is exceptionally difficult for a person high on narcissism and paranoia. Furthermore, when threatened, the brain takes "conservative" stances, i.e. stances that preserve the status quo. When faced with an ever changing world that does not resemble anything that they were accustomed to, they cling on to the closest sense of status quo even if the person or structure that supports it only does so for optics. The lack of education makes it difficult for them to see that they are played like pawns by the bourgeoisie, that they receive preferential treatment through systemic issues [2], and finally they misattribute the reasons for their successes due to their obliviousness [3]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6282974/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6282974/ [2] https://libcom.org/library/advance-class-struggle-abolish-white-race https://libcom.org/library/advance-class-struggle-abolish-wh... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_(psychology) Kind reminder that I stated facts, so please argue, as adults :) .
notacoward 5y ago
Not sure of you realize it, but by focusing a common social-justice phrase on men alone you promote exactly the same kind of "identitarian culture war" that you decry. Might not be that effective.
zozbot234 5y ago
> "Creating an economy where men can attain dignity and social respect." Whether hard-working folks can attain dignity and social respect is a factor of society itself, not merely a side-effect of material circumstances. The poorest countries in the underdeveloped Third World have far more recognition and respect for those who work hard and provide for their households (and the happiness/life satisfaction indicators to go along with it) than much of the rich West.
Applejinx 5y ago
As notacoward observes… literally 'men'? To my ear, 'people' would've worked too. I feel it's always worth asking whether there are unstated axioms here being snuck into the discourse. Especially in a big conversation about how 'everything is being ruined because people won't stick to the old good ways'. Though it may be an uncomfortable question to some, to what extent does this rest upon female humans serving as livestock and spawning/rearing children, being relatively disposable themselves? If you REALLY want to maximize 'men attaining dignity and social respect', to what extent does this rest upon the existence of a subhuman underclass which doesn't count as 'men' and can be enslaved for their labor? Dignity and social respect are RELATIVE. The easiest way to make them seem enhanced for some is to strip 'em from others. People vary far too much to make 'free market' human interaction easy and seamless, and every time we run up against a conflict our dignity and social respect takes a hit. How badly do you want your dignity? And how much is your end goal just you and not anybody else? (this would be an abstract 'you', not intending it as an argument that the original commenter is this 'you')
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Now I really have to wonder, do you get social recognition from your livestock? Of course you don't. So why even make that argument? Dignity and social respect can be a positive sum game; in fact, this is effectively the key insight behind the notion of social capital. In a well-functioning society, more social respect for women can fully coexist with dignity for men and vice versa.
- rayiner 5y ago
  Any culture that equates women having and raising kids with “being livestock” will be replaced by a society that doesn’t see motherhood that way. By definition.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    It's the exact same culture that sees "happiness" for women in pursuing "a younger, richer, more x partner", as noted by a sibling commenter. The idea that many women as well as men might find genuine happiness and fulfillment within stable, well-functioning household relationships is entirely foreign to some "modern" ways of thinking.
rayiner 5y ago
> “Creating an economy where men can attain dignity and social respect." What does that mean? Is everyone going to attend college and become coders? Who is going to collect the trash. In my home country the dominant job opportunity is subsistence farming, people still manage.
- indigochill 5y ago
  > What does that mean? Is everyone going to attend college and become coders? Who is going to collect the trash. The obvious solution is to discard classism and extend dignity and respect to the garbage-collectors. Why shouldn't they be respected? They perform an essential service for their community.
- ohthehugemanate 5y ago
  The lack of dignity and social respect conferred upon those who perform jobs like trash collection is precisely the cultural ill OP is describing. One of my favorite parts of living in Germany has been the relative lack of social hierarchy associated with one's job. I'm in a martial arts class with a mix of doctors, lawyers, musicians, carpenters, students, and (actual) garbage collectors, and not once have I noticed a stratification or class connotation in discussion during or after class. They have very different economic means of course, but "dignity and social respect" is exactly the right description for the quality they all grant each other as contributing members of society. It's a cultural quality I've come to accept as a marker of a functional social democracy.

mola 5y ago

This! Most of the flaming identity cultural wars are basically a distraction. The problem as always is class, and elites vieing for control. Yes progressive values are a thing, but its media representation is nuts, on purpose. The it's us vs them narrative leads to subjucating all values to pure "survival". This promotes long term irrationality. The powers at be know this and capitalize it. On both "sides". In my biased opinion this sort of Machiavellism is more common with conservatives, but its definitely common enough in non conservatives.

dudul 5y ago
Why do you think it's more common with conservatives? You said it yourself, cultural wars are just distraction to keep the elite in power and talk about everything except classes. People in power don't care about conservatives or liberals, they just pick a team and play the game.
- hotpotamus 5y ago
  Which party has been dedicated to cutting the taxes of the wealthy for decades? As the saying goes, show me your budget and I'll show you your values.
  - fallingknife 5y ago
    Which party is dedicated to importing massive numbers of cheap workers from other countries to allow business owners to undercut working class wages and pocket more profits?
    - hotpotamus 5y ago
      Umm... The one that uses immigrants as scapegoats for votes and then does nothing to effectively regulate the businesses that import cheap workers? Take for instance the Trump family - https://www.npr.org/2017/01/12/509179558/trump-winery-is-seeking-visas-for-foreign-workers https://www.npr.org/2017/01/12/509179558/trump-winery-is-see...
    - skinnymuch 5y ago
      What about all the rich or powerful conservatives who end up having cheap workers brought here to work at their homes and so on?
    - quintushoratius 5y ago
      I suspect that you're implying that the answer is the US Democratic party, but it's really not. By making immigration-without-visas a criminal offense, rather than an administrative one, the anti-immigration movement serves to drive immigrants (but not immigration) underground and makes their labor cheaper. It's a lot like prostitution: since prostitution is a criminal offense, all prostitutes are criminals. They can be abused freely because they cannot go to the authorities without certainty being punished themselves. By the same token, an undocumented immigrant cannot contact authorities to report they're underpaid, stolen from, beaten, imprisoned, or enslaved. (These are all things that happen regularly.) Their "criminal" status is used as a cudgel to abuse them. Keep in mind, these are all people that just want to work in exchange for money, and they're responding to people and companies that want to hire their services. The "illegal immigration" posturing is just the buyers' way of artificially depressing prices.
- PartiallyTyped 5y ago
  Because their base consists of people who: - are severely uneducated. Consider distribution of political alignments in Academia. Consider the fact that antivaxxers and conspiracy theorists are in their overwhelming majority politically conservative and authoritarian. Belief in conspiracy theories is highly correlated with an impoverished interpersonal functioning, such as interpersonal paranoia, narcissism, disagreeableness, insecure attachment and Machiavellianism [1]. Impoverished interpersonal skills signify lack of empathy, which fuels dehumanization, and enables exploitation of others. - grew up hammered by propaganda and the red scare, where anything that resembles social welfare is considered communism even if they themselves are dependent on such systems. Accepting that one needs help is exceptionally difficult for a person high on narcissism and paranoia. Furthermore, when threatened, the brain takes "conservative" stances, i.e. stances that preserve the status quo. When faced with an ever changing world that does not resemble anything that they were accustomed to, they cling on to the closest sense of status quo even if the person or structure that supports it only does so for optics. The lack of education makes it difficult for them to see that they are played like pawns by the bourgeoisie, that they receive preferential treatment through systemic issues [2], and finally they misattribute the reasons for their successes due to their obliviousness [3]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6282974/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6282974/ [2] https://libcom.org/library/advance-class-struggle-abolish-white-race https://libcom.org/library/advance-class-struggle-abolish-wh... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_(psychology) Kind reminder that I stated facts, so please argue, as adults :) .

notacoward 5y ago

Not sure of you realize it, but by focusing a common social-justice phrase on men alone you promote exactly the same kind of "identitarian culture war" that you decry. Might not be that effective.

zozbot234 5y ago

> "Creating an economy where men can attain dignity and social respect." Whether hard-working folks can attain dignity and social respect is a factor of society itself, not merely a side-effect of material circumstances. The poorest countries in the underdeveloped Third World have far more recognition and respect for those who work hard and provide for their households (and the happiness/life satisfaction indicators to go along with it) than much of the rich West.

Applejinx 5y ago

As notacoward observes… literally 'men'? To my ear, 'people' would've worked too. I feel it's always worth asking whether there are unstated axioms here being snuck into the discourse. Especially in a big conversation about how 'everything is being ruined because people won't stick to the old good ways'. Though it may be an uncomfortable question to some, to what extent does this rest upon female humans serving as livestock and spawning/rearing children, being relatively disposable themselves? If you REALLY want to maximize 'men attaining dignity and social respect', to what extent does this rest upon the existence of a subhuman underclass which doesn't count as 'men' and can be enslaved for their labor? Dignity and social respect are RELATIVE. The easiest way to make them seem enhanced for some is to strip 'em from others. People vary far too much to make 'free market' human interaction easy and seamless, and every time we run up against a conflict our dignity and social respect takes a hit. How badly do you want your dignity? And how much is your end goal just you and not anybody else? (this would be an abstract 'you', not intending it as an argument that the original commenter is this 'you')

zozbot234 5y ago
Now I really have to wonder, do you get social recognition from your livestock? Of course you don't. So why even make that argument? Dignity and social respect can be a positive sum game; in fact, this is effectively the key insight behind the notion of social capital. In a well-functioning society, more social respect for women can fully coexist with dignity for men and vice versa.
rayiner 5y ago
Any culture that equates women having and raising kids with “being livestock” will be replaced by a society that doesn’t see motherhood that way. By definition.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  It's the exact same culture that sees "happiness" for women in pursuing "a younger, richer, more x partner", as noted by a sibling commenter. The idea that many women as well as men might find genuine happiness and fulfillment within stable, well-functioning household relationships is entirely foreign to some "modern" ways of thinking.

rayiner 5y ago

> “Creating an economy where men can attain dignity and social respect." What does that mean? Is everyone going to attend college and become coders? Who is going to collect the trash. In my home country the dominant job opportunity is subsistence farming, people still manage.

indigochill 5y ago
> What does that mean? Is everyone going to attend college and become coders? Who is going to collect the trash. The obvious solution is to discard classism and extend dignity and respect to the garbage-collectors. Why shouldn't they be respected? They perform an essential service for their community.
ohthehugemanate 5y ago
The lack of dignity and social respect conferred upon those who perform jobs like trash collection is precisely the cultural ill OP is describing. One of my favorite parts of living in Germany has been the relative lack of social hierarchy associated with one's job. I'm in a martial arts class with a mix of doctors, lawyers, musicians, carpenters, students, and (actual) garbage collectors, and not once have I noticed a stratification or class connotation in discussion during or after class. They have very different economic means of course, but "dignity and social respect" is exactly the right description for the quality they all grant each other as contributing members of society. It's a cultural quality I've come to accept as a marker of a functional social democracy.