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> The article is right on the mark talking about the importance of social expectations for men. My family’s rigid expectations have been such a blessing. Émile

by FabHK 5y ago

> The article is right on the mark talking about the importance of social expectations for men. My family’s rigid expectations have been such a blessing. Émile Durkheim basically introduced the discipline of sociology with his study of suicide. He found that the ratio of suicide was higher among protestants than among catholics, and concluded that it was because they were less embedded in strict norms, and freer to do whatever they pleased, compared to the stronger social control among catholics. So, freedom turned out to be not necessarily a good thing. (He also found that suicide is higher in times of peace than in war.) Not sure how the theory held up, and what modern sociologists say about it. But that result stuck in my head, and it aligns with your experience and the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(Durkheim_book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(Durkheim_book)

croes 5y ago
From your link "Durkheim explores the differing suicide rates among Protestants and Catholics, arguing that stronger social control among Catholics results in lower suicide rates. According to Durkheim, Catholic society has normal levels of integration while Protestant society has low levels. This interpretation has been contested. Durkheim may have over-generalized. He took most of his data from earlier researchers, notably Adolph Wagner and Henry Morselli, but they had been more careful in generalizing from their data. Indeed, later researchers found that the Protestant–Catholic differences in suicide seemed to be limited to German-speaking Europe, thus suggesting a need to account for other contributing factors."
DeathArrow 5y ago
>they were less embedded in strict norms, and freer to do whatever they pleased, I would argue that strict norms - if they don't come into contradiction with what is natural and proven in time as beneficial - might imply more freedom than some kinds of "freedoms" or "rights" imposed by force if those "freedoms" or "rights" come into contradiction with the natural way societies and civilizations evolved.
burntoutfire 5y ago
> He found that the ratio of suicide was higher among protestants than among catholics, and concluded that it was because they were less embedded in strict norms, and freer to do whatever they pleased, compared to the stronger social control among catholics. So, freedom turned out to be not necessarily a good thing. Interesting, I'm from a catholic country and my characterisation of those two religions is basically opposite. Chill and rules-skirting catholics (Poles, Italians) vs uptight and law-abiding protestants (Englishmen, Scandinavians etc.).

by FabHK 5y ago

croes 5y ago

From your link "Durkheim explores the differing suicide rates among Protestants and Catholics, arguing that stronger social control among Catholics results in lower suicide rates. According to Durkheim, Catholic society has normal levels of integration while Protestant society has low levels. This interpretation has been contested. Durkheim may have over-generalized. He took most of his data from earlier researchers, notably Adolph Wagner and Henry Morselli, but they had been more careful in generalizing from their data. Indeed, later researchers found that the Protestant–Catholic differences in suicide seemed to be limited to German-speaking Europe, thus suggesting a need to account for other contributing factors."

DeathArrow 5y ago

>they were less embedded in strict norms, and freer to do whatever they pleased, I would argue that strict norms - if they don't come into contradiction with what is natural and proven in time as beneficial - might imply more freedom than some kinds of "freedoms" or "rights" imposed by force if those "freedoms" or "rights" come into contradiction with the natural way societies and civilizations evolved.

burntoutfire 5y ago

> He found that the ratio of suicide was higher among protestants than among catholics, and concluded that it was because they were less embedded in strict norms, and freer to do whatever they pleased, compared to the stronger social control among catholics. So, freedom turned out to be not necessarily a good thing. Interesting, I'm from a catholic country and my characterisation of those two religions is basically opposite. Chill and rules-skirting catholics (Poles, Italians) vs uptight and law-abiding protestants (Englishmen, Scandinavians etc.).