5 ms·

Trash pickup is too cheap / Recycling too expensive and this is a great case; The remainder soap creates a valuable commodity at a small cost of the original,

Trash pickup is too cheap / Recycling too expensive and this is a great case; The remainder soap creates a valuable commodity at a small cost of the original, but hotels (or their toiletry suppliers) aren't solving this on their own (a potential revenue stream). How do we connect the dots? I say this as US jurisdictions are cutting (resident paid) recycling programs because of the high cost of sorting plastic; while the US experiences cardboard shortages, metal shortages (as old vehicles waste yards) - in the midst of climate change pacts. OR, as few jurisdictions implement composting programs where 40% of landfill waste is likely compostable. (and there is a market for curbside compost companies, where consumers are paying $40/mo though the output is very valuable)

bombcar 5y ago
Recycling was a scam invented to pretend plastic is acceptable. We should straight up give up on much of recycling and go back to focusing on the recycling that matters and is worthwhile, and begin to heap scorn on plastics the same way we have done on styrofoam (remember when every big Mac came in it’s own styrofoam container?).
- dotancohen 5y ago
  Plastic recycling is worse than a scam - the process actually releases more carbon (mostly co2) into the atmosphere than creating a new plastic item. I've heard that it was widely implemented to "promote awareness". And the worst part? People who drive gasoline vehicles to bring their plastic recyclables to the recycling center.
  - PolygonSheep 5y ago
    My question for plastic recycling is: if it's so difficult to recycle why not just landfill it? It can't create microplastics, harm wildlife, or float around in the ocean if it's buried inland under feet of dirt. I mean yeah it would be much better if we didn't use it at all but I don't think that genie is going back in the bottle anytime soon.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      Or reuse it. I'm right now drinking from a bottle that's been filled dozens of times. And the best feature of a reused bottle is that it has less aromatics to leach out than the newly-manufactured bottles have - they've already leached out.
      - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
        I don’t know… I think over time plastic tends to become brittle due to UV exposure, temperature cycling, degradation of plasticizers. etc. So I would expect it to release more and more microplastics.
        gernb 5y ago
        Are plastic cutting boards a net win (less bacteria?) or a net loss (adding shavings of plastic to cooking)?
        aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
        Cutting Boards of Plastic and Wood Contaminated Experimentally with Bacteria (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31113021/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31113021/) "Bacteria inoculated onto Plastic blocks were readily recovered for minutes to hours and would multiply if held overnight. Recoveries from wooden blocks were generally less than those from plastic blocks, regardless of new or used status; differences increased with holding time." So plastic gives you more bacteria, and plastic shavings. Stick to wood.
        dotancohen 5y ago
        Note that the lignin in the wood is horrible for the cutting edge. Knives on wood need far more frequent sharpening. But in my opinion it is a good trade off. Note to use solid wood. I've seen cutting blocks of wood strips glued together - impossible to clean and easy to warp. All the disadvantages of every type of cutting board in one overpriced scrap ))
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  I think that plastic recycling wasn't an invented scam, rather a bad generalization of previous recycling systems. Rags, metal, paper, glass can be reasonably recycled or at least processed into something else (rags into paper) and this has been done for centuries. It must have felt natural to add yet another material category to this list.
- syshum 5y ago
  I am not replacing my paper wrapped plastic straw for a plastic wrapped paper straw...... For styrofoam, It was not shame, or environmentalism that caused that change it is price and convenience. styrofoam sucked for most of the uses in fast food. Plastic and Plastic coated paper, was cheaper, more durable, and preferred by most customers. Want to stop plastic, invent something better. Something that does not break down in liquid or grease...
- mgdlbp 5y ago
  Styrofoam almost perfectly demonstrates the issues of recyclability and suitability for food containers that also apply to plastics in general: (Note that what we generically call styrofoam is expanded polystyrene (XPS), which isn't quite the same material as the original 'Styrofoam' brand of extruded polystyrene (EPS) insulation board. The commonality is the polymer they're made from, polystyrene (PS), which is also used as "normal" moulded plastic.) Virtually no polystyrene foam is recycled (and most municipal recycling rejects PS entirely). This is because of the same economic unviability of recycling that plagues most plastics, just greatly exacerbated by the low density of foams. Similarly, the issue with Styrofoam food containers is much more immediate than microplastics in general: PS releases its toxic monomer styrene when heated, which just about makes coffee cups and fast food containers its worst possible use case. But the low price and insulative properties of the foam render it popular still in jurisdictions where it's legal. Also: Rigid polystyrene is used in food containers, too (e.g., yoghurt containers and disposable plastic cups). And another popular polymer, ABS, also contains styrene (hence the recommendation for ventilation when 3D printing it).
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    This is easy to fix if the political will is there. In Norway yoghurt containers, etc., are made of polypropylene not polystyrene
  - Reason077 5y ago
    > "Virtually no polystyrene foam is recycled" Sadly this doesn't seem stop people from jamming up our building's recycling bins with tons of the stuff. Or IKEA, Samsung, and their ilk from producing tons of it to use in product packaging. Horrible stuff!
    - gernb 5y ago
      Isn't that changing? https://www.intelligentliving.co/ikea-mushroom-based-packaging/ https://www.intelligentliving.co/ikea-mushroom-based-packagi...
      - 5y ago
- smileysteve 5y ago
  > Recycling was a scam But this generalization is incorrect. Aluminum, cardboard, steel are easy to transport and recycle. Glass is too.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >Recycling was a scam invented to pretend plastic is acceptable. It's only a scam because it became a thing so recently. Recycling of glass is no more economically viable than plastic recycling and even it was a thing until we started making domestic labor and industry ludicrously expensive.
analog31 5y ago
Soap is artificially cheap too, because it's a byproduct of meat production. If I wanted to think ecologically about soap, I'd think about its source. I use hotel soap, but would have utterly no problem bringing a tiny amount of body wash with me. I already use liquid body wash at home because I live in a region with hard water, and soap turns into soap scum.
- gruez 5y ago
  >Soap is artificially cheap too, because it's a byproduct of meat production source? I know it might traditionally be made from animal fats, but the cheap soaps seem to use SLS, which wikipedia describes as "derived from palm kernel oil or coconut oil"
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - danachow 5y ago
    SLS is a detergent not a soap. Look at the ingredients in a soap like ivory or zest (which used to be a detergent until 2008), or Irish spring (which I like, but is definitely a cheap soap) - the first one will be sodium palmitate or tallowate.
    - gruez 5y ago
      > SLS is a detergent not a soap. That's technically correct but colloquially those are interchangeable, eg. dish "soap", or liquid hand "soap". >Look at the ingredients in a soap like ivory or zest (which used to be a detergent until 2008), or Irish spring (which I like, but is definitely a cheap soap) - the first one will be sodium palmitate or tallowate. After checking the ingredient lists of body washes/hand soaps on amazon, this seems to be limited to solid soaps. I suppose it still means the parent post's point is true (ie. solid soaps are artificially cheaper because of animal fat), but in the context of this story it doesn't matter much. Liquid soaps are more popular than solid soaps[1], except in low income countries where they're more popular because they're cheaper[2]. In my experience liquid soaps are at least as popular as solid soaps in hotels, so it's safe to assume they're willing to fork over money for non-subsidized soap (ie. liquid soaps) and the animal subsidy isn't something that's driving hotel soap waste. [1] https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/40-billion-worldwide-soaps-market-to-2025---increasing-awareness-of-covid-19-is-boosting-demand-301085073.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/40-billion-worldwid... [2] https://www.reportlinker.com/p05916773/UAE-Soap-Market-By-Form-By-Distribution-Channel-By-Application-By-Region-Forecast-Opportunities.html https://www.reportlinker.com/p05916773/UAE-Soap-Market-By-Fo...
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
Recycling being too expensive can also be a sign that it isn't worth it. This only works because it's subsidized from all ends: the hotels are subsidizing it to get some PR out of it, and 20k volunteers are subsidizing it with free labor (according to the article). Soap is cheap. I can buy ~400 g of soap for a dollar, at retail prices. This covers the entire supply chain to produce it, get it to the store, and sell it to me, and the price isn't just the price, it's also a rough indicator for the effort and to some extent the environmental impact. I wouldn't be surprised if the shipping, the production facilities, the fuel for the volunteers commuting etc. made this a net-negative (compared to throwing out the leftovers and making new soap at industrial scale) not just economically, but also for the environment.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  Yeah, if they are transporting this stuff halfway around the world? I can't believe this is a net win.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    To be fair it goes back on boats that would be empty anyway.
7952 5y ago
Surely the solution is liquid products in larger squirty containers.

bombcar 5y ago

Recycling was a scam invented to pretend plastic is acceptable. We should straight up give up on much of recycling and go back to focusing on the recycling that matters and is worthwhile, and begin to heap scorn on plastics the same way we have done on styrofoam (remember when every big Mac came in it’s own styrofoam container?).

dotancohen 5y ago
Plastic recycling is worse than a scam - the process actually releases more carbon (mostly co2) into the atmosphere than creating a new plastic item. I've heard that it was widely implemented to "promote awareness". And the worst part? People who drive gasoline vehicles to bring their plastic recyclables to the recycling center.
- PolygonSheep 5y ago
  My question for plastic recycling is: if it's so difficult to recycle why not just landfill it? It can't create microplastics, harm wildlife, or float around in the ocean if it's buried inland under feet of dirt. I mean yeah it would be much better if we didn't use it at all but I don't think that genie is going back in the bottle anytime soon.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    Or reuse it. I'm right now drinking from a bottle that's been filled dozens of times. And the best feature of a reused bottle is that it has less aromatics to leach out than the newly-manufactured bottles have - they've already leached out.
    - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
      I don’t know… I think over time plastic tends to become brittle due to UV exposure, temperature cycling, degradation of plasticizers. etc. So I would expect it to release more and more microplastics.
      - gernb 5y ago
        Are plastic cutting boards a net win (less bacteria?) or a net loss (adding shavings of plastic to cooking)?
        aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
        Cutting Boards of Plastic and Wood Contaminated Experimentally with Bacteria (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31113021/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31113021/) "Bacteria inoculated onto Plastic blocks were readily recovered for minutes to hours and would multiply if held overnight. Recoveries from wooden blocks were generally less than those from plastic blocks, regardless of new or used status; differences increased with holding time." So plastic gives you more bacteria, and plastic shavings. Stick to wood.
        dotancohen 5y ago
        Note that the lignin in the wood is horrible for the cutting edge. Knives on wood need far more frequent sharpening. But in my opinion it is a good trade off. Note to use solid wood. I've seen cutting blocks of wood strips glued together - impossible to clean and easy to warp. All the disadvantages of every type of cutting board in one overpriced scrap ))
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
inglor_cz 5y ago
I think that plastic recycling wasn't an invented scam, rather a bad generalization of previous recycling systems. Rags, metal, paper, glass can be reasonably recycled or at least processed into something else (rags into paper) and this has been done for centuries. It must have felt natural to add yet another material category to this list.
syshum 5y ago
I am not replacing my paper wrapped plastic straw for a plastic wrapped paper straw...... For styrofoam, It was not shame, or environmentalism that caused that change it is price and convenience. styrofoam sucked for most of the uses in fast food. Plastic and Plastic coated paper, was cheaper, more durable, and preferred by most customers. Want to stop plastic, invent something better. Something that does not break down in liquid or grease...
mgdlbp 5y ago
Styrofoam almost perfectly demonstrates the issues of recyclability and suitability for food containers that also apply to plastics in general: (Note that what we generically call styrofoam is expanded polystyrene (XPS), which isn't quite the same material as the original 'Styrofoam' brand of extruded polystyrene (EPS) insulation board. The commonality is the polymer they're made from, polystyrene (PS), which is also used as "normal" moulded plastic.) Virtually no polystyrene foam is recycled (and most municipal recycling rejects PS entirely). This is because of the same economic unviability of recycling that plagues most plastics, just greatly exacerbated by the low density of foams. Similarly, the issue with Styrofoam food containers is much more immediate than microplastics in general: PS releases its toxic monomer styrene when heated, which just about makes coffee cups and fast food containers its worst possible use case. But the low price and insulative properties of the foam render it popular still in jurisdictions where it's legal. Also: Rigid polystyrene is used in food containers, too (e.g., yoghurt containers and disposable plastic cups). And another popular polymer, ABS, also contains styrene (hence the recommendation for ventilation when 3D printing it).
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  This is easy to fix if the political will is there. In Norway yoghurt containers, etc., are made of polypropylene not polystyrene
- Reason077 5y ago
  > "Virtually no polystyrene foam is recycled" Sadly this doesn't seem stop people from jamming up our building's recycling bins with tons of the stuff. Or IKEA, Samsung, and their ilk from producing tons of it to use in product packaging. Horrible stuff!
  - gernb 5y ago
    Isn't that changing? https://www.intelligentliving.co/ikea-mushroom-based-packaging/ https://www.intelligentliving.co/ikea-mushroom-based-packagi...
    - 5y ago
smileysteve 5y ago
> Recycling was a scam But this generalization is incorrect. Aluminum, cardboard, steel are easy to transport and recycle. Glass is too.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>Recycling was a scam invented to pretend plastic is acceptable. It's only a scam because it became a thing so recently. Recycling of glass is no more economically viable than plastic recycling and even it was a thing until we started making domestic labor and industry ludicrously expensive.

analog31 5y ago

Soap is artificially cheap too, because it's a byproduct of meat production. If I wanted to think ecologically about soap, I'd think about its source. I use hotel soap, but would have utterly no problem bringing a tiny amount of body wash with me. I already use liquid body wash at home because I live in a region with hard water, and soap turns into soap scum.

gruez 5y ago
>Soap is artificially cheap too, because it's a byproduct of meat production source? I know it might traditionally be made from animal fats, but the cheap soaps seem to use SLS, which wikipedia describes as "derived from palm kernel oil or coconut oil"
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- danachow 5y ago
  SLS is a detergent not a soap. Look at the ingredients in a soap like ivory or zest (which used to be a detergent until 2008), or Irish spring (which I like, but is definitely a cheap soap) - the first one will be sodium palmitate or tallowate.
  - gruez 5y ago
    > SLS is a detergent not a soap. That's technically correct but colloquially those are interchangeable, eg. dish "soap", or liquid hand "soap". >Look at the ingredients in a soap like ivory or zest (which used to be a detergent until 2008), or Irish spring (which I like, but is definitely a cheap soap) - the first one will be sodium palmitate or tallowate. After checking the ingredient lists of body washes/hand soaps on amazon, this seems to be limited to solid soaps. I suppose it still means the parent post's point is true (ie. solid soaps are artificially cheaper because of animal fat), but in the context of this story it doesn't matter much. Liquid soaps are more popular than solid soaps[1], except in low income countries where they're more popular because they're cheaper[2]. In my experience liquid soaps are at least as popular as solid soaps in hotels, so it's safe to assume they're willing to fork over money for non-subsidized soap (ie. liquid soaps) and the animal subsidy isn't something that's driving hotel soap waste. [1] https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/40-billion-worldwide-soaps-market-to-2025---increasing-awareness-of-covid-19-is-boosting-demand-301085073.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/40-billion-worldwid... [2] https://www.reportlinker.com/p05916773/UAE-Soap-Market-By-Form-By-Distribution-Channel-By-Application-By-Region-Forecast-Opportunities.html https://www.reportlinker.com/p05916773/UAE-Soap-Market-By-Fo...

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

Recycling being too expensive can also be a sign that it isn't worth it. This only works because it's subsidized from all ends: the hotels are subsidizing it to get some PR out of it, and 20k volunteers are subsidizing it with free labor (according to the article). Soap is cheap. I can buy ~400 g of soap for a dollar, at retail prices. This covers the entire supply chain to produce it, get it to the store, and sell it to me, and the price isn't just the price, it's also a rough indicator for the effort and to some extent the environmental impact. I wouldn't be surprised if the shipping, the production facilities, the fuel for the volunteers commuting etc. made this a net-negative (compared to throwing out the leftovers and making new soap at industrial scale) not just economically, but also for the environment.

JohnBooty 5y ago
Yeah, if they are transporting this stuff halfway around the world? I can't believe this is a net win.
- bombcar 5y ago
  To be fair it goes back on boats that would be empty anyway.

7952 5y ago

Surely the solution is liquid products in larger squirty containers.