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I hate to be "that guy", but you guys have this whole thing backwards. What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. If sex is free then you ca

I hate to be "that guy", but you guys have this whole thing backwards. What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. If sex is free then you can have all the liberal or conservative values you want, but it won't cause those men to work harder. Why? Because sex is free. Full stop. If sex costs more than most men will ever have, then you can have all the liberal or conservative values you want, most men will still opt out. Since they know their chances are nil. Why? Because they'll never get sex, it costs more than they have. Full stop. No amount of ideology is going to change these facts. No matter what the ideology is. (Of course, now I think about it, you could probably change it at the barrel of a gun. That is, the government could make blunt force laws that would force women to lower their prices for sex and companionship, or force men to work hard even in environments where sex is free. Or both I suppose? But that's not ideology moving men and women, but fear of the government's guns.) And that's it. There is no grand philosophy behind it all. It's just a bunch of guys out trying to get off. And women out trying to get the best deal for what they offer. This is the kind of issue where liberals and conservatives generally go off the rails. They usually never account for base, vulgar human nature in their grand philosophies.

BlargMcLarg 5y ago
>What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. Too simple, though what you say captures the essence. People have breakpoints for how hard they are willing to work for various things. Some of them are progressive (relationship -> kids -> family). Some are lateral (relationship, starting a business). For a lot of men, they see getting a relationship is more difficult than just having low effort sex. So they get exactly that and continue on with their lives otherwise. Next step, families and children. Have a relationship? Cool, now look at how much effort it takes to start a family and raise kids. Look at the risks involved. Look at the demands it takes. Loads of guys go "nope, too much, too risky, too little reward" and check out. Society has been pushing to make it much easier to have sex risk-free. They have made it much harder to start a relationship, let alone start a family, by introducing all these risks and incentives not to. Plenty of men still want a family more than or on top of sex. They just don't want the current deal given to them. Cherry on top, almost every time the debate opens as to why men in particular don't want this deal (as opposed to "why do people / women not want this deal"), the discussion turns into shaming men into taking the deal rather than evaluating things and working together. No civil conversation, just a bunch of monkeys flinging poo. And people are surprised men are ghosting society, when you won't even pretend to listen?
bombcar 5y ago
Liberals and conservatives agree on the basics and disagree on the scope - which is why conservatives are always defending the so-called “liberal” policies of a generation ago. Admitting the base and vulgar nature of humans puts the whole concept of a liberal democracy at risk.
- etherael 5y ago
  If it's admitting the truth, then it should be at risk. Anything else is just delaying the inevitable and not planning adequately for its arrival in the meantime.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    We’re starting to see the seeds of this in various ways - an example is realizing that laws and penalties against speeding don’t really do anything, but changing the design of the road can do everything. There are many, many more examples for us to find.
    - etherael 5y ago
      If the point is to reduce speed or accidents and their externalities, sure. If the point is to raise revenue from those penalties, not so much.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
h2odragon 5y ago
> What men want is sex. If it were that simple, there would be more goats and less stress.
- dgfitz 5y ago
  I’m not sure if you’re trying to be funny or making a lazy dismissal of the point you quoted. Either way, suggesting men fuck goats isn’t productive.
  - h2odragon 5y ago
    all 3.
  - matthewdgreen 5y ago
    The point quoted is a pretty lazy effort that simplifies "what men want" down to something that is highly incomplete and obviously inaccurate. I think a sarcastic reply is sometimes the best response to low-quality, reductive comments.
matthewdgreen 5y ago
>What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. That may be true in your experience, but in my experience what men mostly want is to build things and dig really cool tunnels.
throw-away-9925 5y ago
Straight hetero male here confirming. Too much work for real relationships and kids and marriage and all that. Much easier to just date around, get laid, and bail if things ever get hard. I fully believe (though despise) the harsh but true evidence that I have seen in my life. Love is a lie, children are a burden, the future is bleak, etc. I would love to live in a world of community, great for kids, having a family is awesome, etc., but that's not where we live. Best to live for short-term rewards and after I die let the rest of the humans destroy themselves. I won't add another person to the madness. When you can see that nothing we can do can derail the train headed for the cliff, and that the game theory at play has reduced relationships to transactional, short-lived interactions, you can choose to "hope for the best" and get burned, or just check out, try to enjoy your short term by working as little as possible in the machine, and then ending it if you get too old/sick to enjoy anymore. A good example is just watching the lib/conserv and pro/anti male sentiments in this thread. It just makes it glaringly obvious that seriously participating in this system is an exercise in futility. Its kinda like starting a game of monopoly with all the spaces owned. I'm gonna role the dice and I assume I'm not getting ahead. But I'm sure as hell not going to get invested, invite more people to play, or do more to enrich the bastards who setup such a crappy game in the first place.
Workaccount2 5y ago
>What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. I think you are close, this is probably mostly true for the 16-24 yr old crowd. But I think that the actual drive is to produce kids who make a family that he can provide for/care for. The primal urge is steering the ship, but it's a step (or two) deeper then sex.
DeathArrow 5y ago
>What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. Both men and women want sex. And they want sex because Nature taught them so, as sex is vital for perpetuating the species. Both men and women want food, shelter, financial stability and to feel good. Both men and women were taught by their natural instincts and by the thousands of years of evolution of the society that they have to care for their offspring for the human kind to evolve and for their genes to spread. What has the violent sliding of the society to the left has taught both men and women is to be hedonistic, selfish to not care about the others and to only search for instant gratification. So both men and women were fooled by this poisonous ideology but while biology has made men more independent, they made the children more dependent of their moms than their dads, so once a woman has a child, it is harder for her to walk off. Otherwise, women have a very low interest to get married, keep their marriage and have children. So they have a very similar attitude to men.

BlargMcLarg 5y ago

>What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. Too simple, though what you say captures the essence. People have breakpoints for how hard they are willing to work for various things. Some of them are progressive (relationship -> kids -> family). Some are lateral (relationship, starting a business). For a lot of men, they see getting a relationship is more difficult than just having low effort sex. So they get exactly that and continue on with their lives otherwise. Next step, families and children. Have a relationship? Cool, now look at how much effort it takes to start a family and raise kids. Look at the risks involved. Look at the demands it takes. Loads of guys go "nope, too much, too risky, too little reward" and check out. Society has been pushing to make it much easier to have sex risk-free. They have made it much harder to start a relationship, let alone start a family, by introducing all these risks and incentives not to. Plenty of men still want a family more than or on top of sex. They just don't want the current deal given to them. Cherry on top, almost every time the debate opens as to why men in particular don't want this deal (as opposed to "why do people / women not want this deal"), the discussion turns into shaming men into taking the deal rather than evaluating things and working together. No civil conversation, just a bunch of monkeys flinging poo. And people are surprised men are ghosting society, when you won't even pretend to listen?

bombcar 5y ago

Liberals and conservatives agree on the basics and disagree on the scope - which is why conservatives are always defending the so-called “liberal” policies of a generation ago. Admitting the base and vulgar nature of humans puts the whole concept of a liberal democracy at risk.

etherael 5y ago
If it's admitting the truth, then it should be at risk. Anything else is just delaying the inevitable and not planning adequately for its arrival in the meantime.
- bombcar 5y ago
  We’re starting to see the seeds of this in various ways - an example is realizing that laws and penalties against speeding don’t really do anything, but changing the design of the road can do everything. There are many, many more examples for us to find.
  - etherael 5y ago
    If the point is to reduce speed or accidents and their externalities, sure. If the point is to raise revenue from those penalties, not so much.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

h2odragon 5y ago

> What men want is sex. If it were that simple, there would be more goats and less stress.

dgfitz 5y ago
I’m not sure if you’re trying to be funny or making a lazy dismissal of the point you quoted. Either way, suggesting men fuck goats isn’t productive.
- h2odragon 5y ago
  all 3.
- matthewdgreen 5y ago
  The point quoted is a pretty lazy effort that simplifies "what men want" down to something that is highly incomplete and obviously inaccurate. I think a sarcastic reply is sometimes the best response to low-quality, reductive comments.

matthewdgreen 5y ago

>What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. That may be true in your experience, but in my experience what men mostly want is to build things and dig really cool tunnels.

throw-away-9925 5y ago

Straight hetero male here confirming. Too much work for real relationships and kids and marriage and all that. Much easier to just date around, get laid, and bail if things ever get hard. I fully believe (though despise) the harsh but true evidence that I have seen in my life. Love is a lie, children are a burden, the future is bleak, etc. I would love to live in a world of community, great for kids, having a family is awesome, etc., but that's not where we live. Best to live for short-term rewards and after I die let the rest of the humans destroy themselves. I won't add another person to the madness. When you can see that nothing we can do can derail the train headed for the cliff, and that the game theory at play has reduced relationships to transactional, short-lived interactions, you can choose to "hope for the best" and get burned, or just check out, try to enjoy your short term by working as little as possible in the machine, and then ending it if you get too old/sick to enjoy anymore. A good example is just watching the lib/conserv and pro/anti male sentiments in this thread. It just makes it glaringly obvious that seriously participating in this system is an exercise in futility. Its kinda like starting a game of monopoly with all the spaces owned. I'm gonna role the dice and I assume I'm not getting ahead. But I'm sure as hell not going to get invested, invite more people to play, or do more to enrich the bastards who setup such a crappy game in the first place.

Workaccount2 5y ago

>What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. I think you are close, this is probably mostly true for the 16-24 yr old crowd. But I think that the actual drive is to produce kids who make a family that he can provide for/care for. The primal urge is steering the ship, but it's a step (or two) deeper then sex.

DeathArrow 5y ago

>What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. Both men and women want sex. And they want sex because Nature taught them so, as sex is vital for perpetuating the species. Both men and women want food, shelter, financial stability and to feel good. Both men and women were taught by their natural instincts and by the thousands of years of evolution of the society that they have to care for their offspring for the human kind to evolve and for their genes to spread. What has the violent sliding of the society to the left has taught both men and women is to be hedonistic, selfish to not care about the others and to only search for instant gratification. So both men and women were fooled by this poisonous ideology but while biology has made men more independent, they made the children more dependent of their moms than their dads, so once a woman has a child, it is harder for her to walk off. Otherwise, women have a very low interest to get married, keep their marriage and have children. So they have a very similar attitude to men.