5 ms·

The US is likely fine because our southern border is porous and anyone can walk right in. I don’t see any indication that this will change. The benefit is even

by cebert 5y ago

The US is likely fine because our southern border is porous and anyone can walk right in. I don’t see any indication that this will change. The benefit is even if the US birth rate is declining, we have an influx of younger individuals who can help keep the economy going.

AvocadoPanic 5y ago
Except that the US will look and operate more and more like wherever these people came from.
- d4mi3n 5y ago
  Is this a bad thing? The US was founded by immigrants. Immigration, diversity, and the US’ history with these topics (good and bad) is huge part of the national cultural identity. As a US citizen, I think as long as we can maintain the cornerstones of our national heritage (democratic traditions, constitutional freedoms, etc) it should be fine if things change to reflect the demographics of our population.
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    Immigration has a large history in the US, yes, but historically immigrants were encouraged (through social pressures) to assimilate part of their identity. Is that pressure for partial assimilation still there? Or do we encourage diversity so much now that anything goes?
    - d4mi3n 5y ago
      This is an interesting point! I think this really depends on what we, as a society, want to ensure we all have in common. If you identify as a US citizen, what do you have in common with your countrymen? Shared experiences and values can be hugely important. What those values should be is where I see a lot of contention. I see this as a matter of degree. I think democratic values are fairly uncontroversial for a democratic country (rule of law, political representation, and all the other underpinnings of a function democracy). I think most US citizens also support many egalitarian ideals like the concepts of basic human rights, freedom of opportunity, and freedom of expression (speech, religion, etc). Beyond that I’m really not sure!
    - trynumber9 5y ago
      It is in fashion among certain people to reject assimilation. But if you look around it is definitely not fashionable among recent immigrants. They pretty much all want their kids to speak English and be American. They know it would be handicapping them if they didn't.
    - xenadu02 5y ago
      That pressure still exists. I'm not sure why you might think otherwise. Various parts of current culture came from immigrant communities maintaining parts of their cultural identity while still broadly assimilating, eg St Patrick's Day. Keep in mind a lot of immigrants from Central/South America 6 generations ago just pass for "white people" now so you don't notice them.
      - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
        > I'm not sure why you might think otherwise. I asked a question if diversity and inclusion affect assimilation. I am not thinking one way or the other; the question was not rhetorical.
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      > Or do we encourage diversity so much now that anything goes? If anything it's the opposite. The US exports so much of its mainstream culture through movies, music, social networks and videogames that it's extremely difficult to find societies that are not heavily influenced by it. In terms of culture, "globalization" meant "americanization" especially in the last 30 years.
  - AvocadoPanic 5y ago
    Early US immigrants were pioneers wanting to carve a civilization on new continent. Would you consider the rule of law as a cornerstone of our national heritage? So many of today's immigrants seem to have little regard, evidenced by their illegal entry.
    - igetspam 5y ago
      Like the Irish? Or the Chinese? Or the Italians? They came here as pioneers? Or did they come looking for something better than what they were offered? Remember, we treated them like shit too. Maybe hating immigrants is a corner-stone of America... There are opportunists everywhere. I'm sure not everyone coming from our southern border is going to be someone I want in my neighborhood but that doesn't mean so many people aren't just looking for an escape from danger. Would you break a law to save your own life? To protect your family? Is penalizing people in these circumstances truly just? Does it make you a good person?
      - AvocadoPanic 5y ago
        I was thinking of Germans from the Palatinate... The Irish and Italians often had the full weight of law enforcement countering their illegal activities. There was also lots of social pressure to assimilate. It's hard to say, we'd need to do a deep dive on each. Pretty sure thats not happening. Absent that, yes I'm happy to exclude them.
        selimthegrim 5y ago
        The Irish _became_ law enforcement, unflattering nicknames for the Black Maria notwithstanding
    - JaimeThompson 5y ago
      It's strange that those who knowingly break the laws to hire them aren't punished at nearly the rate they immigrants are, isn't it? Why are we so willing to give that subgroup a pass on ignoring the rule of law?
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  In 100 years or less, whites will be the minority in the US.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    The fertility rate for minority ethnicities in the US has been declining rapidly to catch up to the decline curve for non Hispanic whites, so I’m not so sure this is true anymore. This is likely a combination of Westernization of younger minority generations (Hispanics specifically) and economic conditions broadly imho. https://ifstudies.org/blog/baby-bust-fertility-is-declining-the-most-among-minority-women https://ifstudies.org/blog/baby-bust-fertility-is-declining-...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    Ehh, I doubt you could distinguish the difference between a majority of 2nd generation Hispanic-Americans and "white" European ancestry people, by worldviews or looks (because the Hispanics have European ancestry too). Just look at the leading politicians in Texas, Ted Cruz and Beto Orourke and tell me which one is Hispanic and how it makes any difference. And this indistinguishability will only increase over time, where there will still be a "white" majority including most Hispanics, as the census currently does.
    - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
      Perhaps not in looks but what about culture, language, food, traditions, and values?
      - reducesuffering 5y ago
        I know many 2nd-gen Hispanic-Americans and culture/value wise we're very similar. As a block they're just more traditionally Catholic, but religiosity is diminishing everywhere. Language-wise, many grow up not speaking Spanish, being a generation to feel 1 foot in both cultures but that will be gone with their children. Food-wise is the least of any issue, US loves cultural food and Mexican food is crazy popular, it already blends into Tex-Mex and Cal-Mex foods that US chefs already assimilate into new variations.
culopatin 5y ago
Just walking in doesn’t make you part of the economy as you imply. I can’t reject or support your claim of the border because I haven’t seen it myself and if I google it I’m sure I’ll find hits for either side, but I can tell you that being an illegal immigrant does not help either side. They can’t get a normal job with a W2, so if they pay taxes (which many do because they are more afraid of the IRS than homeland security), it’s probably not an accurate amount. So the only part of your economy that keeps moving is the uninsured motorist insurance and cash transactions in small groups. Obviously the declining rate is not a problem for the US otherwise they would simplify the immigration process and embrace that people want to move to this country to work and do good and increase the GDP
- convolvatron 5y ago
  what about the innumerable businesses built on cheap labor?
the_only_law 5y ago
> The US is likely fine because our southern border is porous and anyone can walk right in Go ahead try it.
- bruceb 5y ago
  Um yes, you can walk in and get flown to a city in the US on the govt's credit card.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
mahogany 5y ago
> our southern border is porous and anyone can walk right in. That's an odd thing to say when thousands have died in the desert trying to get in.

by cebert 5y ago

AvocadoPanic 5y ago

Except that the US will look and operate more and more like wherever these people came from.

d4mi3n 5y ago
Is this a bad thing? The US was founded by immigrants. Immigration, diversity, and the US’ history with these topics (good and bad) is huge part of the national cultural identity. As a US citizen, I think as long as we can maintain the cornerstones of our national heritage (democratic traditions, constitutional freedoms, etc) it should be fine if things change to reflect the demographics of our population.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  Immigration has a large history in the US, yes, but historically immigrants were encouraged (through social pressures) to assimilate part of their identity. Is that pressure for partial assimilation still there? Or do we encourage diversity so much now that anything goes?
  - d4mi3n 5y ago
    This is an interesting point! I think this really depends on what we, as a society, want to ensure we all have in common. If you identify as a US citizen, what do you have in common with your countrymen? Shared experiences and values can be hugely important. What those values should be is where I see a lot of contention. I see this as a matter of degree. I think democratic values are fairly uncontroversial for a democratic country (rule of law, political representation, and all the other underpinnings of a function democracy). I think most US citizens also support many egalitarian ideals like the concepts of basic human rights, freedom of opportunity, and freedom of expression (speech, religion, etc). Beyond that I’m really not sure!
  - trynumber9 5y ago
    It is in fashion among certain people to reject assimilation. But if you look around it is definitely not fashionable among recent immigrants. They pretty much all want their kids to speak English and be American. They know it would be handicapping them if they didn't.
  - xenadu02 5y ago
    That pressure still exists. I'm not sure why you might think otherwise. Various parts of current culture came from immigrant communities maintaining parts of their cultural identity while still broadly assimilating, eg St Patrick's Day. Keep in mind a lot of immigrants from Central/South America 6 generations ago just pass for "white people" now so you don't notice them.
    - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
      > I'm not sure why you might think otherwise. I asked a question if diversity and inclusion affect assimilation. I am not thinking one way or the other; the question was not rhetorical.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    > Or do we encourage diversity so much now that anything goes? If anything it's the opposite. The US exports so much of its mainstream culture through movies, music, social networks and videogames that it's extremely difficult to find societies that are not heavily influenced by it. In terms of culture, "globalization" meant "americanization" especially in the last 30 years.
- AvocadoPanic 5y ago
  Early US immigrants were pioneers wanting to carve a civilization on new continent. Would you consider the rule of law as a cornerstone of our national heritage? So many of today's immigrants seem to have little regard, evidenced by their illegal entry.
  - igetspam 5y ago
    Like the Irish? Or the Chinese? Or the Italians? They came here as pioneers? Or did they come looking for something better than what they were offered? Remember, we treated them like shit too. Maybe hating immigrants is a corner-stone of America... There are opportunists everywhere. I'm sure not everyone coming from our southern border is going to be someone I want in my neighborhood but that doesn't mean so many people aren't just looking for an escape from danger. Would you break a law to save your own life? To protect your family? Is penalizing people in these circumstances truly just? Does it make you a good person?
    - AvocadoPanic 5y ago
      I was thinking of Germans from the Palatinate... The Irish and Italians often had the full weight of law enforcement countering their illegal activities. There was also lots of social pressure to assimilate. It's hard to say, we'd need to do a deep dive on each. Pretty sure thats not happening. Absent that, yes I'm happy to exclude them.
      - selimthegrim 5y ago
        The Irish _became_ law enforcement, unflattering nicknames for the Black Maria notwithstanding
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    It's strange that those who knowingly break the laws to hire them aren't punished at nearly the rate they immigrants are, isn't it? Why are we so willing to give that subgroup a pass on ignoring the rule of law?
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
In 100 years or less, whites will be the minority in the US.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  The fertility rate for minority ethnicities in the US has been declining rapidly to catch up to the decline curve for non Hispanic whites, so I’m not so sure this is true anymore. This is likely a combination of Westernization of younger minority generations (Hispanics specifically) and economic conditions broadly imho. https://ifstudies.org/blog/baby-bust-fertility-is-declining-the-most-among-minority-women https://ifstudies.org/blog/baby-bust-fertility-is-declining-...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  Ehh, I doubt you could distinguish the difference between a majority of 2nd generation Hispanic-Americans and "white" European ancestry people, by worldviews or looks (because the Hispanics have European ancestry too). Just look at the leading politicians in Texas, Ted Cruz and Beto Orourke and tell me which one is Hispanic and how it makes any difference. And this indistinguishability will only increase over time, where there will still be a "white" majority including most Hispanics, as the census currently does.
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    Perhaps not in looks but what about culture, language, food, traditions, and values?
    - reducesuffering 5y ago
      I know many 2nd-gen Hispanic-Americans and culture/value wise we're very similar. As a block they're just more traditionally Catholic, but religiosity is diminishing everywhere. Language-wise, many grow up not speaking Spanish, being a generation to feel 1 foot in both cultures but that will be gone with their children. Food-wise is the least of any issue, US loves cultural food and Mexican food is crazy popular, it already blends into Tex-Mex and Cal-Mex foods that US chefs already assimilate into new variations.

culopatin 5y ago

Just walking in doesn’t make you part of the economy as you imply. I can’t reject or support your claim of the border because I haven’t seen it myself and if I google it I’m sure I’ll find hits for either side, but I can tell you that being an illegal immigrant does not help either side. They can’t get a normal job with a W2, so if they pay taxes (which many do because they are more afraid of the IRS than homeland security), it’s probably not an accurate amount. So the only part of your economy that keeps moving is the uninsured motorist insurance and cash transactions in small groups. Obviously the declining rate is not a problem for the US otherwise they would simplify the immigration process and embrace that people want to move to this country to work and do good and increase the GDP

convolvatron 5y ago
what about the innumerable businesses built on cheap labor?

the_only_law 5y ago

> The US is likely fine because our southern border is porous and anyone can walk right in Go ahead try it.

bruceb 5y ago
Um yes, you can walk in and get flown to a city in the US on the govt's credit card.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

mahogany 5y ago

> our southern border is porous and anyone can walk right in. That's an odd thing to say when thousands have died in the desert trying to get in.