5 ms·

Why not the south of Spain? Just as much sun and more politically stable.

by 35mm 4y ago

blibble 4y ago
increasing energy dependence on the EU seems unwise given its attempts to use it for political leverage: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/05/france-uk-jersey-eu-energy-supply-fishing-row-channel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/05/france-uk-jers... the government agrees: https://news.sky.com/story/jersey-fishing-dispute-frances-sinister-threat-to-cut-power-to-island-means-channel-cable-project-should-be-scrapped-mp-says-12299117 https://news.sky.com/story/jersey-fishing-dispute-frances-si... (and has denied construction of new interconnectors to France since) Spain would definitely use an interconnector as leverage re: Gibraltar
- bdauvergne 4y ago
  UK which of course never used unrelated subject like fishing rights or immigration as a political leverage. \s Every country in the EU submit to the majority law, that's the idea of an union, even France or Germany do not have everything to their liking every time.
  - Veen 4y ago
    Which is precisely why the UK is no longer in the EU. It no longer has to follow "majority law" and can do what is in its own best interests.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      > and can do what is in its own best interests. If it did that, it wouldn't have gotten out of the common market. The UK is way past sensible choices in its best interests, and is firmly in the "cut its nose to spite the EU".
      - blibble 4y ago
        how you leave the legal framework without exiting the "common market" (single market)? the answer is: you can't
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    The point wasn’t “the UK is better than Spain” but rather, “energy dependence on Spain is not in the UK’s best interest”.
    - bdauvergne 4y ago
      Without any argument apart "there seem to be rules to follow inside the EU" it seems unsubstantiated. A better argument would be that digging or laying 3000Km 12GW terrestrial electric line through Spain and France would be expensive and especially difficult to sell to them, even if they could benefit from the energy.
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        It’s already been clearly substantiated: running the cable through Spain or France would give leverage to those countries regarding (among other things) territorial disputes. This has nothing to do with the EU except in the tangential sense that Spain and France are both member states.
- hokkos 4y ago
  you don't know what you are talking about, lots of interconnectors are planned to EU : https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy-and-regulatory-programmes/interconnectors https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy... Aquind cancellation is about financial stability of the developper, its russian origin, and politicals connections to the tories and also ecological interest groups lobbying on both side of the interconnector.
giorgioz 4y ago
I do wonder the same but about Portugal. Portugal would be closer than the south part of Spain.
zikero 4y ago
On what grounds are you claiming Morocco is less politically stable?
- rationalfaith 4y ago
- KarlKemp 4y ago
  The grounds under our feet, i. e. reality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#/media/File:Democracy_Index_2020.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#/media/File:De...
  - varajelle 4y ago
    Democracy ≠ politically stable
    - KarlKemp 4y ago
      True, in the sense that being healthy is also less stable than being dead. Wrong, in any meaningful way, and obviously so: the linked index rates democracy on multiple dimensions, including protection of civil liberties, electoral process and pluralism, functioning of government, political participation, and political culture. It’s impossible to rate high on all those issues and not be “stable” in any meaningful sense. FWIW Morocco is also quite stable, among the best both in Africa and the Arab world.
      - DuskStar 4y ago
        > It’s impossible to rate high on all those issues and not be “stable” in any meaningful sense. However, a dictatorship can ALSO be stable - just look at North Korea. Democracy is not the only way to achieve stability.
a_humean 4y ago
It has the whiff a brexit about it. The current government is allergic to most forms of UK/EU cooperation. They don't want to give the EU extra leverage in the future, so its a means of diversification esp in the context of a lack of political will (strong NIMBY sentiment) to seriously invest in on-shore wind power in the UK. We already have 3-4 interconnects with EU countries if I recall: France, Ireland, Netherlands, ??? (a fourth?). EDIT: Belgium and Norway is the fourth and fifth respectively, and apparently Denmark is planned.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  Genuine question: what’s wrong with diversification? Isn’t that a good thing?
  - a_humean 4y ago
    There isn't anything wrong with diversification, and this might even be a good idea. I'm just commenting upon the likely motivations are primarily domestic politics and geopolitics given its pretty obvious that you could achieve similar results by doing this with onshore wind and solar installations in southern Spain with lower technical and cost requirements. Its definitely true that outside of the EU we are going to be treated differently than if we were EU members. EU members will always come first, and geopolitical spats with say Spain over Gibraltar or France over fishing that would otherwise get mediated via the EU could now be higher risk in future.
    - 7952 4y ago
      The cable may be cheaper but what about land value?
mardifoufs 4y ago
Morocco is pretty stable. There are no sectarian tensions, tribalism is basically non existent, and even the western sahara situation is stabilized with the US recently recognizing Morocco's claim to the region. Keep in mind that the moroccan state has existed in some form or another for around 1300 years. so the country is much more cohesive, and the central power more powerful than other "newer" post colonial countries. It's very very far from being a perfect or even good country (for most of us moroccans), but it has an almost bulletproof record w.r.t foreign investment. The usually very slow "makhzen" (state bureaucracy) can suddenly become super super efficient to attract foreign capital. Tanger-MED and the huge automobile industry around it is a very good example of that.
tobylane 4y ago
The local residents would complain about the project. In perfect English as there are many English retirees in southern Spain. A few percent more sun, cheaper builders, I can understand this choice.

Why not the south of Spain? Just as much sun and more politically stable.

by 35mm 4y ago

Why not the south of Spain? Just as much sun and more politically stable.

increasing energy dependence on the EU seems unwise given its attempts to use it for political leverage: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/05/france-uk-jersey-eu-energy-supply-fishing-row-channel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/05/france-uk-jers... the government agrees: https://news.sky.com/story/jersey-fishing-dispute-frances-sinister-threat-to-cut-power-to-island-means-channel-cable-project-should-be-scrapped-mp-says-12299117 https://news.sky.com/story/jersey-fishing-dispute-frances-si... (and has denied construction of new interconnectors to France since) Spain would definitely use an interconnector as leverage re: Gibraltar

bdauvergne 4y ago
UK which of course never used unrelated subject like fishing rights or immigration as a political leverage. \s Every country in the EU submit to the majority law, that's the idea of an union, even France or Germany do not have everything to their liking every time.
- Veen 4y ago
  Which is precisely why the UK is no longer in the EU. It no longer has to follow "majority law" and can do what is in its own best interests.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > and can do what is in its own best interests. If it did that, it wouldn't have gotten out of the common market. The UK is way past sensible choices in its best interests, and is firmly in the "cut its nose to spite the EU".
    - blibble 4y ago
      how you leave the legal framework without exiting the "common market" (single market)? the answer is: you can't
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  The point wasn’t “the UK is better than Spain” but rather, “energy dependence on Spain is not in the UK’s best interest”.
  - bdauvergne 4y ago
    Without any argument apart "there seem to be rules to follow inside the EU" it seems unsubstantiated. A better argument would be that digging or laying 3000Km 12GW terrestrial electric line through Spain and France would be expensive and especially difficult to sell to them, even if they could benefit from the energy.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      It’s already been clearly substantiated: running the cable through Spain or France would give leverage to those countries regarding (among other things) territorial disputes. This has nothing to do with the EU except in the tangential sense that Spain and France are both member states.
hokkos 4y ago
you don't know what you are talking about, lots of interconnectors are planned to EU : https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy-and-regulatory-programmes/interconnectors https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy... Aquind cancellation is about financial stability of the developper, its russian origin, and politicals connections to the tories and also ecological interest groups lobbying on both side of the interconnector.

giorgioz 4y ago

I do wonder the same but about Portugal. Portugal would be closer than the south part of Spain.

zikero 4y ago

On what grounds are you claiming Morocco is less politically stable?

rationalfaith 4y ago
KarlKemp 4y ago
The grounds under our feet, i. e. reality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#/media/File:Democracy_Index_2020.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#/media/File:De...
- varajelle 4y ago
  Democracy ≠ politically stable
  - KarlKemp 4y ago
    True, in the sense that being healthy is also less stable than being dead. Wrong, in any meaningful way, and obviously so: the linked index rates democracy on multiple dimensions, including protection of civil liberties, electoral process and pluralism, functioning of government, political participation, and political culture. It’s impossible to rate high on all those issues and not be “stable” in any meaningful sense. FWIW Morocco is also quite stable, among the best both in Africa and the Arab world.
    - DuskStar 4y ago
      > It’s impossible to rate high on all those issues and not be “stable” in any meaningful sense. However, a dictatorship can ALSO be stable - just look at North Korea. Democracy is not the only way to achieve stability.

a_humean 4y ago

It has the whiff a brexit about it. The current government is allergic to most forms of UK/EU cooperation. They don't want to give the EU extra leverage in the future, so its a means of diversification esp in the context of a lack of political will (strong NIMBY sentiment) to seriously invest in on-shore wind power in the UK. We already have 3-4 interconnects with EU countries if I recall: France, Ireland, Netherlands, ??? (a fourth?). EDIT: Belgium and Norway is the fourth and fifth respectively, and apparently Denmark is planned.

throwaway894345 4y ago
Genuine question: what’s wrong with diversification? Isn’t that a good thing?
- a_humean 4y ago
  There isn't anything wrong with diversification, and this might even be a good idea. I'm just commenting upon the likely motivations are primarily domestic politics and geopolitics given its pretty obvious that you could achieve similar results by doing this with onshore wind and solar installations in southern Spain with lower technical and cost requirements. Its definitely true that outside of the EU we are going to be treated differently than if we were EU members. EU members will always come first, and geopolitical spats with say Spain over Gibraltar or France over fishing that would otherwise get mediated via the EU could now be higher risk in future.
  - 7952 4y ago
    The cable may be cheaper but what about land value?

mardifoufs 4y ago

Morocco is pretty stable. There are no sectarian tensions, tribalism is basically non existent, and even the western sahara situation is stabilized with the US recently recognizing Morocco's claim to the region. Keep in mind that the moroccan state has existed in some form or another for around 1300 years. so the country is much more cohesive, and the central power more powerful than other "newer" post colonial countries. It's very very far from being a perfect or even good country (for most of us moroccans), but it has an almost bulletproof record w.r.t foreign investment. The usually very slow "makhzen" (state bureaucracy) can suddenly become super super efficient to attract foreign capital. Tanger-MED and the huge automobile industry around it is a very good example of that.

tobylane 4y ago

The local residents would complain about the project. In perfect English as there are many English retirees in southern Spain. A few percent more sun, cheaper builders, I can understand this choice.