5 ms·

Yay the patriarchy! :)

hardrcafe 4y ago
At least it has a track record of creating coherent, functioning civilization the world over since time immemorial. Can’t say whatever we have today looks all that compelling, and I say this as a “winner” with a high salary, owned home, wife, and children. I think of a future beyond my ability to retire to Margaritaville. What future lies for my daughters and sons? A hedonist utopia that denigrates and denies the most basic human imperatives? To build a family? Why would I want that for them?
- notpachet 4y ago
  I think too much attachment to humanity, in its historical incarnation, is misplaced. Those periods of coherent, functioning civilization may end up just being the gentler slope of the asymptote before things started going nuclear. The same underlying tendencies have always been present in us, they just weren't manifesting at the same scale. "Coherent and functioning" sounds great, but in practice that coherence was usually bought on credit, by pushing negative social externalities somewhere out of sight. Those externalities are more easily ignorable when the boundaries of the world are smaller. Just push the trash into the river; just tie the witch up in the forest. Just shut up and marry, girl.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  "Functioning" is a word for it, I guess. I really don't think I'd describe a system where 50% of the population has basically zero rights to be "functioning."
  - wpietri 4y ago
    A surprising number of people in the 50% who get extra privileges seem fine with it.
civilized 4y ago
Is it patriarchy to expect men to support the families they create? (Sorry if I didn't get the memo, who can keep track of the latest things Deemed Problematic these days)
raverbashing 4y ago
Actually the patriarchy traditionally would not see deadbeat dads with good eyes. There is plenty of reasons to be critical of the patriarchy, but in this aspect they were right.
wpietri 4y ago
I think this comment could be longer, but I think it has an in important point. The article ignores a huge change over that time period: increasing freedom for women from patriarchy. Any sort of "staying with the mother of their kids" argument has to acknowledge we can't just turn the clock back. The truth then and now is that a lot of men were not and are not good partners. (Anybody who doubts me should spend time reading Am I the Asshole. Not only are bad male parental partners rife, but they are often bad in ways that echo patriarchal beliefs that would have been perfectly acceptable back in the day.) Just as an example, marital rape was not outlawed in all 50 states until 1993, and it was legal everywhere until 1972. Young men do need plenty more education and pressure on how to do it right. But we must acknowledge it's a new kind of right. And I think we need new kinds of measures. "Family stability" in an unhappy or unsafe home is not something we should be aiming for.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  >Young men do need plenty more education and pressure on how to do it right. People in general need more education on how to do it right. Women aren't exactly free of guilt on this. >Anybody who doubts me should spend time reading Am I the Asshole. This only confirms men are more often outed as poor male partners. A forum full of anecdotes being labeled does not imply a large population of bad male partners. That's about as ridiculous as going to 4chan and implying a significant amount / too many women are promiscuous because it has enough examples of promiscuous women.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    Ah yes, think of the men! Single moms outnumber single dads 5:1. People in general need more education, but much more the men. Partriarchy left women holding the bag for a lot of things, so they were more prepared for a post-patriarchy world. Men will need more explicit support in learning to adapt to their new societal role. > This only confirms men are more often outed as poor male partners. Technically true, but unless you have some data to suggest it's meaningful, I think that's just a distraction. Reddit is 2/3rds male [1], so if anything we would expect more stories to be about bad women. But in the real world, women initiate the bulk of divorces [2]. And men are more likely to be the kind of bad partner who, say, turns murdery [3]. So I think my inference that men are on average the worse partner and need more help is reasonable. [1] https://www.alphr.com/demographics-reddit/ https://www.alphr.com/demographics-reddit/ [2] https://www.whitleylawfirmpc.com/3-reasons-why-women-initiate-divorce-more-often-than-men/ https://www.whitleylawfirmpc.com/3-reasons-why-women-initiat... [3] https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/domestic-abuse-is-a-gendered-crime/ https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-dom...

At least it has a track record of creating coherent, functioning civilization the world over since time immemorial. Can’t say whatever we have today looks all that compelling, and I say this as a “winner” with a high salary, owned home, wife, and children. I think of a future beyond my ability to retire to Margaritaville. What future lies for my daughters and sons? A hedonist utopia that denigrates and denies the most basic human imperatives? To build a family? Why would I want that for them?

notpachet 4y ago
I think too much attachment to humanity, in its historical incarnation, is misplaced. Those periods of coherent, functioning civilization may end up just being the gentler slope of the asymptote before things started going nuclear. The same underlying tendencies have always been present in us, they just weren't manifesting at the same scale. "Coherent and functioning" sounds great, but in practice that coherence was usually bought on credit, by pushing negative social externalities somewhere out of sight. Those externalities are more easily ignorable when the boundaries of the world are smaller. Just push the trash into the river; just tie the witch up in the forest. Just shut up and marry, girl.
UncleMeat 4y ago
"Functioning" is a word for it, I guess. I really don't think I'd describe a system where 50% of the population has basically zero rights to be "functioning."
- wpietri 4y ago
  A surprising number of people in the 50% who get extra privileges seem fine with it.

civilized 4y ago

Is it patriarchy to expect men to support the families they create? (Sorry if I didn't get the memo, who can keep track of the latest things Deemed Problematic these days)

raverbashing 4y ago

Actually the patriarchy traditionally would not see deadbeat dads with good eyes. There is plenty of reasons to be critical of the patriarchy, but in this aspect they were right.

wpietri 4y ago

I think this comment could be longer, but I think it has an in important point. The article ignores a huge change over that time period: increasing freedom for women from patriarchy. Any sort of "staying with the mother of their kids" argument has to acknowledge we can't just turn the clock back. The truth then and now is that a lot of men were not and are not good partners. (Anybody who doubts me should spend time reading Am I the Asshole. Not only are bad male parental partners rife, but they are often bad in ways that echo patriarchal beliefs that would have been perfectly acceptable back in the day.) Just as an example, marital rape was not outlawed in all 50 states until 1993, and it was legal everywhere until 1972. Young men do need plenty more education and pressure on how to do it right. But we must acknowledge it's a new kind of right. And I think we need new kinds of measures. "Family stability" in an unhappy or unsafe home is not something we should be aiming for.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>Young men do need plenty more education and pressure on how to do it right. People in general need more education on how to do it right. Women aren't exactly free of guilt on this. >Anybody who doubts me should spend time reading Am I the Asshole. This only confirms men are more often outed as poor male partners. A forum full of anecdotes being labeled does not imply a large population of bad male partners. That's about as ridiculous as going to 4chan and implying a significant amount / too many women are promiscuous because it has enough examples of promiscuous women.
- wpietri 4y ago
  Ah yes, think of the men! Single moms outnumber single dads 5:1. People in general need more education, but much more the men. Partriarchy left women holding the bag for a lot of things, so they were more prepared for a post-patriarchy world. Men will need more explicit support in learning to adapt to their new societal role. > This only confirms men are more often outed as poor male partners. Technically true, but unless you have some data to suggest it's meaningful, I think that's just a distraction. Reddit is 2/3rds male [1], so if anything we would expect more stories to be about bad women. But in the real world, women initiate the bulk of divorces [2]. And men are more likely to be the kind of bad partner who, say, turns murdery [3]. So I think my inference that men are on average the worse partner and need more help is reasonable. [1] https://www.alphr.com/demographics-reddit/ https://www.alphr.com/demographics-reddit/ [2] https://www.whitleylawfirmpc.com/3-reasons-why-women-initiate-divorce-more-often-than-men/ https://www.whitleylawfirmpc.com/3-reasons-why-women-initiat... [3] https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/domestic-abuse-is-a-gendered-crime/ https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-dom...