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This has been a really good read! Thanks for sharing, the only place where I had a strong disagreement was this, which could definitely be based on cultural dif

This has been a really good read! Thanks for sharing, the only place where I had a strong disagreement was this, which could definitely be based on cultural differences: > The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs—ensure that their children are raised in stable homes. But actively undermine the norm for everyone else. I am not from the USA but I don't believe this is true in e.g. Europe. At least in my country (Spain) and where I live now (Japan), it is understood even by the upper class that it's better to live in an educated society than in a criminal one. Sure there's some within that upper class that might want it, but I'd say it's a tiny minority of classists and not the upper class overall. But I also believe that in these countries the upper class is closer to the middle/lower classes, while in the USA I can see how the huge gap might make more people in the upper class think that it's an impossible goal and just give up and try to isolate the classes.

sandworm101 5y ago
Criminality and education are not distinct. Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate, they are just far less likely to be caught. Either the nature of thier crimes does not lend itself to reporting (embezzelment v. bank robbery) or they recieve different treatment by the legal system.
- franciscop 5y ago
  > "Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate" That's a really strong claim IMHO, do you have sources? I would strongly expect that better education is correlated with lower crime rates, and all research and articles I've been able to find so far seem to suggest that: > Results show that increased college graduation rates corresponds to a significant decrease in the crime rate. A 5% increase in the college graduation rate, for instance, produces an 18.7% reduction in the homicide rate [1] https://as.nyu.edu/content/dam/nyu-as/politics/documents/Gonzalez.pdf https://as.nyu.edu/content/dam/nyu-as/politics/documents/Gon... [2] https://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.com/crime/education-and-crime/4/ https://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.com/crime/education-an...
- goto11 5y ago
  > they are just far less likely to be caught Perhaps, but I wonder how you get reliable statistics on the demographics of the criminals which don't get caught?
- karpierz 5y ago
  > Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate, they are just far less likely to be caught. While controlling for income? Or without considering confounders?
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate, I'm gonna call bullshit on this. Even if you assume all demographics are snorting coke and beating their wives equally there are so, so, so many laws you can just trivially comply with by expending a little bit more money and there is so much less incentive for petty crime when you are in a career track where misdemeanors matter.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    Tax evasion, child abuse, embezzlement, drug abuse/dealing, drunk driving ... all crimes that can easily go unreported and if are reported result in reduced punishments for those who can afford good lawyers. Look at Rush Limbaugh. Plenty of drug-related criminality there but zero convictions. Will smith just attacked someone on camera but just walked away without even an interview by police. It isn't just the ultra-famous/rich. They are just the best examples of what privilege really means. (And the Russ/Oscars incidents are polar opposites of the political spectrum.)
    - hackerfromthefu 5y ago
      Re Will Smith - He slapped, once, for insulting his wife. That's not what I would call 'attacking' unless you're trying to sensationalize it. And this in response to an article on men not standing up for their wives in life!!
playpause 5y ago
My feeling is that the 'undermining' the author refers to is not a conscious attempt to keep the lower classes down. It's just middle/upper class people spouting fashionable political views, going along with the 'right message', and not really thinking about it. When it comes to their own personal behavioural decisions that will affect their kids, they take it more seriously, basing their decisions on their deep-down sense of 'how things really are', and then they come up with some kind of rationalisation of how this conservative behaviour actually fits in with their anti-conservative political views. This rationalising process has become second nature and they don't notice they are doing it at all.
- raxxorraxor 5y ago
  It is also often of form of courtesy. You don't want to burden single parents further by elaborating how damaging this can be for their kids, especially if you have them in your audience and it makes it even worse if they take it to heart. So in that situation being polite and being honest collide like in many situations. There are some true believers, but they are far more rare.

sandworm101 5y ago

Criminality and education are not distinct. Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate, they are just far less likely to be caught. Either the nature of thier crimes does not lend itself to reporting (embezzelment v. bank robbery) or they recieve different treatment by the legal system.

franciscop 5y ago
> "Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate" That's a really strong claim IMHO, do you have sources? I would strongly expect that better education is correlated with lower crime rates, and all research and articles I've been able to find so far seem to suggest that: > Results show that increased college graduation rates corresponds to a significant decrease in the crime rate. A 5% increase in the college graduation rate, for instance, produces an 18.7% reduction in the homicide rate [1] https://as.nyu.edu/content/dam/nyu-as/politics/documents/Gonzalez.pdf https://as.nyu.edu/content/dam/nyu-as/politics/documents/Gon... [2] https://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.com/crime/education-and-crime/4/ https://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.com/crime/education-an...
goto11 5y ago
> they are just far less likely to be caught Perhaps, but I wonder how you get reliable statistics on the demographics of the criminals which don't get caught?
karpierz 5y ago
> Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate, they are just far less likely to be caught. While controlling for income? Or without considering confounders?
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>Better-educated people commit crimes at roughly the same rate, I'm gonna call bullshit on this. Even if you assume all demographics are snorting coke and beating their wives equally there are so, so, so many laws you can just trivially comply with by expending a little bit more money and there is so much less incentive for petty crime when you are in a career track where misdemeanors matter.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Tax evasion, child abuse, embezzlement, drug abuse/dealing, drunk driving ... all crimes that can easily go unreported and if are reported result in reduced punishments for those who can afford good lawyers. Look at Rush Limbaugh. Plenty of drug-related criminality there but zero convictions. Will smith just attacked someone on camera but just walked away without even an interview by police. It isn't just the ultra-famous/rich. They are just the best examples of what privilege really means. (And the Russ/Oscars incidents are polar opposites of the political spectrum.)
  - hackerfromthefu 5y ago
    Re Will Smith - He slapped, once, for insulting his wife. That's not what I would call 'attacking' unless you're trying to sensationalize it. And this in response to an article on men not standing up for their wives in life!!

playpause 5y ago

My feeling is that the 'undermining' the author refers to is not a conscious attempt to keep the lower classes down. It's just middle/upper class people spouting fashionable political views, going along with the 'right message', and not really thinking about it. When it comes to their own personal behavioural decisions that will affect their kids, they take it more seriously, basing their decisions on their deep-down sense of 'how things really are', and then they come up with some kind of rationalisation of how this conservative behaviour actually fits in with their anti-conservative political views. This rationalising process has become second nature and they don't notice they are doing it at all.

raxxorraxor 5y ago
It is also often of form of courtesy. You don't want to burden single parents further by elaborating how damaging this can be for their kids, especially if you have them in your audience and it makes it even worse if they take it to heart. So in that situation being polite and being honest collide like in many situations. There are some true believers, but they are far more rare.