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> The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs—ensure that their children are raised in stable homes.

> The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs—ensure that their children are raised in stable homes. But actively undermine the norm for everyone else. Yep. If you were raised in poverty, the WORST thing you can do is listen to "approved" mainstream advice. That culture / media isn't there to help you, but to sell you things or make money on telling you what you want to hear. I'll go one step further and say that if you are a man born into poverty, check out Aaron Clarey's asshole consulting. Don't agree with everything he says, but as a starting point, that's 10 times better than what your guidance counselor will tell you.

franciscop 5y ago
So I strongly disagree with that point, which could be based in cultures (specially in Spain where I have more experience seeing these things); I haven't seen enough of the mainstream USA advice, but for example I believe mainstream advice is still to get a degree in the USA, while if a degree costed $100k+ I believe in Spain it'd def not be mainstream advice and instead to tell people to strongly consider other alternatives. Luckily a degree is almost free here, so the advice is to get it, specially those degrees that have good job prospects. So I'm genuinely curious about examples you could give about this? Do you consider e.g. /r/personalfinance as "approved" mainstream advice? I believe it caters fairly well to the low-middle-even-high classes, but probably not to the lowest (homeless) or highest (super-rich).
- Filligree 5y ago
  > So I'm genuinely curious about examples you could give about this? Do you consider e.g. /r/personalfinance as "approved" mainstream advice? I believe it caters fairly well to the low-middle-even-high classes, but probably not to the lowest (homeless) or highest (super-rich). Nothing on Reddit is 'mainstream'. Most people have never visited the site.
  - franciscop 5y ago
    Fair enough, that's why I was asking whether Reddit advice is similar somehow to mainstream advice. What would you consider mainstream advice then? Do you have any article that shows mainstream advice (for the USA)?
    - Filligree 4y ago
      I don't live in the USA, and have never been exposed to its mainstream. Probably the best way to find out would be to go outside, talk to random people, and ask them where they get their news and/or advice?
      - franciscop 4y ago
        When I go outside and talk to random people they tend to answer in Japanese, not American English (I live in Japan) :)
        Filligree 4y ago
        You might try it anyway. Sounds like it'd be fun. ;-)
- AvocadoPanic 4y ago
  r/personalfinance is largely fine if you've made it that far. I read the comment you replied to to be the, follow your passion, university is required, lean-in, girl-boss, live your dream, it takes a village, shitty advice that permeates culture in the US. The messaging that children out of wedlock is pro-poverty and marriage is anti-poverty is nearly non-existant in the main stream. Same with the negative outcomes of boys raised by single mothers.
  - franciscop 4y ago
    Okay University required is the one I knew in the US that should be controversial but is not too much yet. Follow your passion seems to be similar to live your dream, and I can see that being terrible advice for young lower-class. This is AFAIK only a path encouraged for rich kids in Spain and only to certain extent, since they will inherit whatever. But probably due to chronic young unemployment, our society highly critical to studying degrees without good opportunities. Ironically the only places I've seen this in Spain as advice from high class to everyone is where we've strongly imported USA culture, among "modern entrepreneurs". Had never heard of "girl-boss" nor "it takes a village" as financial advice! Reading about girl-boss [1], I'm assuming (please correct me if I'm wrong!) it's about empowerment and not taking a "normal" job and instead try to be your own boss, specially aimed at young women. Which is great if you are upper class and can fall back to your family for help, but obviously a terrible idea if you don't have a plan-b/good fallback, resulting in poverty. Right? And about "it takes a village"? I cannot find much relevant info, everything seems to be about getting help from your community. Does it mean that it's great advice if you are surrounded by successful driven people, but bad advice if the community is a poor one riffled with crime? Sorry for so many questions, most are confirmations to make sure I understood things correctly [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlboss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlboss
    - AvocadoPanic 4y ago
      Yes generally that's it. Girl-bossing is also the desire / goal to achieve success in a traditionally male fashion; Elizabeth Holms, Sheryl Sandberg, Carly Fiorina, etc. The obscured bit to this is that men typically don't value this sort of success in their wives or mothers of their children and many woman chasing this success end up in mid-level make-work jobs anyway. It takes a village https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_takes_a_village https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_takes_a_village With the breakdown of marriage and the increase of 'non-traditional' families / decrease in nuclear families, this proverb was bandied about as marketing for 'non-traditional' families. Of course in practice the outcomes match what you'd expect a child raised by an African village to be.
- andrewclunn 4y ago
  Honest questions deserve honest answers. First, I am coming from a US-centric position (the article dealt with that, I am from the US, and the my response deals specifically with that culture... though Canadians likely would benefit from it too). As to education and degrees, there is a HUGE divergence in the types of degrees that are worth the money, and those which act more as institutional pyramid schemes. This distinction is well known on the example advice channel I recommended, but largely absent from mainstream culture. As to what qualifies as mainstream culture, before the internet it was a clear delineation (based on broadcast and print), now there are perhaps tiers (and that's a broader conversation). One thing to note is that the more direct influence that institutional power has via gatekeeping (by directly promoting ideas through things like textbook publishers or narrowing discussion via tech censorship policies) the more the area caters to the desires of those in power, rather than those using / consuming the service. I steer clear of reddit myself because several times in the past when areas have become too divergent from "acceptable narrative" they have been closed down. There's plenty more that could be said on this topic, but that would likely require a book on epistemology. Hope that answered your questions about my intentions and views at least.
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  The USA isn’t California. The median college graduating debt is 20-30k, not 100k.
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
You quoted from TFA: > The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs which is another example of the bullshit-y parts of TFA. 1. the idea that "the people with the most money and education" form some sort of coherent cultural and ideological group is absurd. Does anyone think that the raft of Republican members of congress who went to ivy league schools shape culture and customs in the same way that, say, Beyonce does? 2. the idea that "the people with the most money and education" actually shape culture and customs is also open to substantive debate. Are they influential? Of course. Do they have some sort of exclusive control ? Doubtful. 3. the idea that there is a single culture or single set of customs is absurd on its face.

franciscop 5y ago

So I strongly disagree with that point, which could be based in cultures (specially in Spain where I have more experience seeing these things); I haven't seen enough of the mainstream USA advice, but for example I believe mainstream advice is still to get a degree in the USA, while if a degree costed $100k+ I believe in Spain it'd def not be mainstream advice and instead to tell people to strongly consider other alternatives. Luckily a degree is almost free here, so the advice is to get it, specially those degrees that have good job prospects. So I'm genuinely curious about examples you could give about this? Do you consider e.g. /r/personalfinance as "approved" mainstream advice? I believe it caters fairly well to the low-middle-even-high classes, but probably not to the lowest (homeless) or highest (super-rich).

Filligree 5y ago
> So I'm genuinely curious about examples you could give about this? Do you consider e.g. /r/personalfinance as "approved" mainstream advice? I believe it caters fairly well to the low-middle-even-high classes, but probably not to the lowest (homeless) or highest (super-rich). Nothing on Reddit is 'mainstream'. Most people have never visited the site.
- franciscop 5y ago
  Fair enough, that's why I was asking whether Reddit advice is similar somehow to mainstream advice. What would you consider mainstream advice then? Do you have any article that shows mainstream advice (for the USA)?
  - Filligree 4y ago
    I don't live in the USA, and have never been exposed to its mainstream. Probably the best way to find out would be to go outside, talk to random people, and ask them where they get their news and/or advice?
    - franciscop 4y ago
      When I go outside and talk to random people they tend to answer in Japanese, not American English (I live in Japan) :)
      - Filligree 4y ago
        You might try it anyway. Sounds like it'd be fun. ;-)
AvocadoPanic 4y ago
r/personalfinance is largely fine if you've made it that far. I read the comment you replied to to be the, follow your passion, university is required, lean-in, girl-boss, live your dream, it takes a village, shitty advice that permeates culture in the US. The messaging that children out of wedlock is pro-poverty and marriage is anti-poverty is nearly non-existant in the main stream. Same with the negative outcomes of boys raised by single mothers.
- franciscop 4y ago
  Okay University required is the one I knew in the US that should be controversial but is not too much yet. Follow your passion seems to be similar to live your dream, and I can see that being terrible advice for young lower-class. This is AFAIK only a path encouraged for rich kids in Spain and only to certain extent, since they will inherit whatever. But probably due to chronic young unemployment, our society highly critical to studying degrees without good opportunities. Ironically the only places I've seen this in Spain as advice from high class to everyone is where we've strongly imported USA culture, among "modern entrepreneurs". Had never heard of "girl-boss" nor "it takes a village" as financial advice! Reading about girl-boss [1], I'm assuming (please correct me if I'm wrong!) it's about empowerment and not taking a "normal" job and instead try to be your own boss, specially aimed at young women. Which is great if you are upper class and can fall back to your family for help, but obviously a terrible idea if you don't have a plan-b/good fallback, resulting in poverty. Right? And about "it takes a village"? I cannot find much relevant info, everything seems to be about getting help from your community. Does it mean that it's great advice if you are surrounded by successful driven people, but bad advice if the community is a poor one riffled with crime? Sorry for so many questions, most are confirmations to make sure I understood things correctly [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlboss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlboss
  - AvocadoPanic 4y ago
    Yes generally that's it. Girl-bossing is also the desire / goal to achieve success in a traditionally male fashion; Elizabeth Holms, Sheryl Sandberg, Carly Fiorina, etc. The obscured bit to this is that men typically don't value this sort of success in their wives or mothers of their children and many woman chasing this success end up in mid-level make-work jobs anyway. It takes a village https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_takes_a_village https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_takes_a_village With the breakdown of marriage and the increase of 'non-traditional' families / decrease in nuclear families, this proverb was bandied about as marketing for 'non-traditional' families. Of course in practice the outcomes match what you'd expect a child raised by an African village to be.
andrewclunn 4y ago
Honest questions deserve honest answers. First, I am coming from a US-centric position (the article dealt with that, I am from the US, and the my response deals specifically with that culture... though Canadians likely would benefit from it too). As to education and degrees, there is a HUGE divergence in the types of degrees that are worth the money, and those which act more as institutional pyramid schemes. This distinction is well known on the example advice channel I recommended, but largely absent from mainstream culture. As to what qualifies as mainstream culture, before the internet it was a clear delineation (based on broadcast and print), now there are perhaps tiers (and that's a broader conversation). One thing to note is that the more direct influence that institutional power has via gatekeeping (by directly promoting ideas through things like textbook publishers or narrowing discussion via tech censorship policies) the more the area caters to the desires of those in power, rather than those using / consuming the service. I steer clear of reddit myself because several times in the past when areas have become too divergent from "acceptable narrative" they have been closed down. There's plenty more that could be said on this topic, but that would likely require a book on epistemology. Hope that answered your questions about my intentions and views at least.
geraldwhen 4y ago
The USA isn’t California. The median college graduating debt is 20-30k, not 100k.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

You quoted from TFA: > The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs which is another example of the bullshit-y parts of TFA. 1. the idea that "the people with the most money and education" form some sort of coherent cultural and ideological group is absurd. Does anyone think that the raft of Republican members of congress who went to ivy league schools shape culture and customs in the same way that, say, Beyonce does? 2. the idea that "the people with the most money and education" actually shape culture and customs is also open to substantive debate. Are they influential? Of course. Do they have some sort of exclusive control ? Doubtful. 3. the idea that there is a single culture or single set of customs is absurd on its face.