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Less than a hundred years ago russians marched into my country and tried to murder every man and rape every woman. Now they're marching into Ukraine and doing

Less than a hundred years ago russians marched into my country and tried to murder every man and rape every woman. Now they're marching into Ukraine and doing the same. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you just want to "feel good" about how woke you percieve yourself to be, all the while living comfortably very far from a russian border, I'd wager. All this seems just overblown bigotry to you.

inkyoto 5y ago
> Less than a hundred years ago russians marched into my country and tried to murder every man and rape every woman. You had better back such a sweeping statement up with hard facts and numbers as its emotional quotient veers past the red line. The history of the human race is so rife with examples of polity A committing atrocities against people of polity B under pretexts 1, 2, … N that it does not take long of poking around to find something to embarrass nearly any ethnic group on this planet, small or large. Human beings simply do not have a lasting track record of peacefully resolving their differences and most of the time resort to the warfare instead. Sad but true. Let's do another fact cross-check if the domain name of «.fi» in your profile rings true to the origin of your abode. Finland joined Nazi Germany as an ally and participated in the invasion of the Soviet Union; from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Finnish_offensive_phase_in_1941 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Finnish_offen...: «On the morning of 22 June Adolf Hitler's proclamation read: "Together with their Finnish comrades in arms the heroes from Narvik stand at the edge of the Arctic Ocean. German troops under command of the conqueror of Norway, and the Finnish freedom fighters under their Marshal's command, are protecting Finnish territory». «The Finnish plans for the offensive in Ladoga Karelia were finalised on 28 June 1941, and the first stages of the operation began on 10 July. By 16 July, VI Corps had reached the northern shore of Lake Ladoga, dividing the Soviet 7th Army, which had been tasked with defending the area. […] The Finnish II Corps started its offensive in the north of the Karelian Isthmus on 31 July. […] On 22 August, the Finnish IV Corps began its offensive south of II Corps and advanced towards Vyborg (Finnish: Viipuri). By 23 August, II Corps had reached the Vuoksi River to the east and encircled the Soviet forces defending Vyborg». On Finland's plans concerning Eastern Karelia; from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_military_administration_in_Eastern_Karelia#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_military_administratio...: «The Continuation War and belief in a quick German victory over the Soviet Union once again gave rise to Finnish irredentism. The legality of the Finnish claims on Eastern Karelia was justified by both ethno-cultural and military security factors. During the spring of 1941, when the Finnish political leadership understood the full extent of the German plans concerning the Soviet Union, president Ryti commissioned professor of geography Väinö Auer and historian Eino Jutikkala to demonstrate "scholarly" that Eastern Karelia formed a natural part of the Finnish living space». On the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Russians in Easter Karelia by the Finnish government; from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_concentration_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_concentration_ca...: «These camps were organized by the armed forces supreme commander Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim. The [Eastern Karelian concentration – emphasis is mine] camps were intended to hold camp detainees for future exchange with the Finnic population from the rest of Russia. The mortality rate of civilians in the camps was high due to famine and disease: by some estimates, 4279 civilians died in these camps, meaning a rough mortality rate of 17% […] Significant numbers of Soviet civilians were interred in the concentration camps. These were primarily Russian women, children, and the elderly, as almost all of the working age male and female population were either drafted or evacuated by the Soviets. […] During the spring and summer of 1942, about 3,500 detainees died of malnutrition». Granted, the situation with ethnic Russian detained in Finnish concentration camps was never as severe as in German extermination camps and the detainees did get released, several thousands did die anyway under the justification of the polity A leadership having a superiority over people of polity B. We now have gone a full circle.
- EdwardDiego 5y ago
  The Red Army raping its way through Germany (not sure if that is the country the comment you're replying to was referring to), is pretty well documented and agreed upon by everyone other than Russian historians. > Finland joined Nazi Germany as an ally and participated in the invasion of the Soviet Union When you linked to an article on the Continuation War, did you wonder why it was called the Continuation War? Not the War of Finnish Aggression?
  - inkyoto 5y ago
    > The Red Army raping its way through Germany […] In fact, it was much worse and started way before. According to informal accounts that Russian historians silently omit due to not boding well the narrative of the glory and the purity of the Soviet victory, male Wermacht soldiers captured in trenches of the Eastern Front were frequently sexually abused and raped with material objects other than a male genitalia, such as glass bottles. The most commonly cited reason (and an excuse) is revenge for an attempt of a near total extermination of Eastern Slavs (Poles, Belarussians, Ukrainians – not just ethnic Russians). Actually, it was the Poles, the Belarussians and the Ukrainians who bore the main brunt of the Nazi brutality. US and British troops, however, did participate in mass rapes after the fall of Berlin and West Germany as well, only to a lesser extent. Many of the Allied forces' soldiers were court martialed on the account of their involvement in mass rapes of German women. Yet, they were given a free reign in the first few days. Soviet Army was given a longer "leeway" in their rampage after which those involved in rapes and other atrocities were also court martialed. Again, the most cited reason is revenge for the murdering of 27+ million Soviet citizens. Personally, I can't accept revenge as a rationalisation of events. > […] did you wonder why it was called the Continuation War? Yes, I did ponder the very same question; yet, I am at a loss. Finland attacking back the Soviets on its own to regain previous losses and calling that The Continuation War? Yes, I can see a merit in that. Finland opportunistically siding with Nazi Germany, creating a pretext rooted in the nationalistic rhetoric and the Finnish epic poetry for the ethnic cleansing? No, it is a separate undertaking and not a continuation war (note the spelling).
- hypertele-Xii 5y ago
  The soviet union illegally and unprovoked invaded Finland in 1939 and conquered territory. Then: On 22 June 1941, Germany launched an invasion of the Soviet Union. Three days later, the Soviet Union conducted an air raid on Finnish cities, prompting Finland to declare war and allow German troops stationed in Finland to begin offensive warfare. By September 1941, Finland had regained its post–Winter War concessions to the Soviet Union: the Karelian Isthmus and Ladoga Karelia. However, the Finnish Army continued the offensive past the pre-1939 border during the conquest of East Karelia, including Petrozavodsk, and halted only around 30–32 km (19–20 mi) from the centre of Leningrad. It participated in besieging the city by cutting the northern supply routes and by digging in until 1944. So the war you are talking about started with, again, the soviet union bombing Finland. We got hella mad and pushed them back, reclaiming our lost territories. Did we march further into russia than we needed to? Sure. Was there precedent? Absolutely. Am I a bigot for hating russians? Fuck no. Some prisoners of war dying of malnutrition or disease is hardly an evil act from a tiny nation of farmers struggling to feed themselves while fighting to survive invasion from russia.
philwelch 5y ago
And what would you suggest we do? Murder every Russian man and rape every Russian woman as collective retribution? Besides, how many Ukrainians were in the Red Army that invaded Finland in 1939? And what was the nationality of the man who ordered that invasion? By your logic, Russians, Ukrainians, and Georgians are all your enemies, so why take a side when they are fighting between themselves? My moral stance here is to remember the distinction between a people and a regime. It’s the opposite of what the “woke” do; in fact, many of the “woke” wholeheartedly agree with you.
- hypertele-Xii 5y ago
  > And what would you suggest we do? Stop calling justified hate "bigotry". That's all. That's what I was accused of.
  - philwelch 5y ago
    Indiscriminate hatred towards people you don’t even know, purely on the basis of what country they were born in, qualifies as bigotry. You can hold the opinion that it’s justified in this particular instance, but it is still bigotry.

inkyoto 5y ago

> Less than a hundred years ago russians marched into my country and tried to murder every man and rape every woman. You had better back such a sweeping statement up with hard facts and numbers as its emotional quotient veers past the red line. The history of the human race is so rife with examples of polity A committing atrocities against people of polity B under pretexts 1, 2, … N that it does not take long of poking around to find something to embarrass nearly any ethnic group on this planet, small or large. Human beings simply do not have a lasting track record of peacefully resolving their differences and most of the time resort to the warfare instead. Sad but true. Let's do another fact cross-check if the domain name of «.fi» in your profile rings true to the origin of your abode. Finland joined Nazi Germany as an ally and participated in the invasion of the Soviet Union; from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Finnish_offensive_phase_in_1941 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Finnish_offen...: «On the morning of 22 June Adolf Hitler's proclamation read: "Together with their Finnish comrades in arms the heroes from Narvik stand at the edge of the Arctic Ocean. German troops under command of the conqueror of Norway, and the Finnish freedom fighters under their Marshal's command, are protecting Finnish territory». «The Finnish plans for the offensive in Ladoga Karelia were finalised on 28 June 1941, and the first stages of the operation began on 10 July. By 16 July, VI Corps had reached the northern shore of Lake Ladoga, dividing the Soviet 7th Army, which had been tasked with defending the area. […] The Finnish II Corps started its offensive in the north of the Karelian Isthmus on 31 July. […] On 22 August, the Finnish IV Corps began its offensive south of II Corps and advanced towards Vyborg (Finnish: Viipuri). By 23 August, II Corps had reached the Vuoksi River to the east and encircled the Soviet forces defending Vyborg». On Finland's plans concerning Eastern Karelia; from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_military_administration_in_Eastern_Karelia#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_military_administratio...: «The Continuation War and belief in a quick German victory over the Soviet Union once again gave rise to Finnish irredentism. The legality of the Finnish claims on Eastern Karelia was justified by both ethno-cultural and military security factors. During the spring of 1941, when the Finnish political leadership understood the full extent of the German plans concerning the Soviet Union, president Ryti commissioned professor of geography Väinö Auer and historian Eino Jutikkala to demonstrate "scholarly" that Eastern Karelia formed a natural part of the Finnish living space». On the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Russians in Easter Karelia by the Finnish government; from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_concentration_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_concentration_ca...: «These camps were organized by the armed forces supreme commander Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim. The [Eastern Karelian concentration – emphasis is mine] camps were intended to hold camp detainees for future exchange with the Finnic population from the rest of Russia. The mortality rate of civilians in the camps was high due to famine and disease: by some estimates, 4279 civilians died in these camps, meaning a rough mortality rate of 17% […] Significant numbers of Soviet civilians were interred in the concentration camps. These were primarily Russian women, children, and the elderly, as almost all of the working age male and female population were either drafted or evacuated by the Soviets. […] During the spring and summer of 1942, about 3,500 detainees died of malnutrition». Granted, the situation with ethnic Russian detained in Finnish concentration camps was never as severe as in German extermination camps and the detainees did get released, several thousands did die anyway under the justification of the polity A leadership having a superiority over people of polity B. We now have gone a full circle.

EdwardDiego 5y ago
The Red Army raping its way through Germany (not sure if that is the country the comment you're replying to was referring to), is pretty well documented and agreed upon by everyone other than Russian historians. > Finland joined Nazi Germany as an ally and participated in the invasion of the Soviet Union When you linked to an article on the Continuation War, did you wonder why it was called the Continuation War? Not the War of Finnish Aggression?
- inkyoto 5y ago
  > The Red Army raping its way through Germany […] In fact, it was much worse and started way before. According to informal accounts that Russian historians silently omit due to not boding well the narrative of the glory and the purity of the Soviet victory, male Wermacht soldiers captured in trenches of the Eastern Front were frequently sexually abused and raped with material objects other than a male genitalia, such as glass bottles. The most commonly cited reason (and an excuse) is revenge for an attempt of a near total extermination of Eastern Slavs (Poles, Belarussians, Ukrainians – not just ethnic Russians). Actually, it was the Poles, the Belarussians and the Ukrainians who bore the main brunt of the Nazi brutality. US and British troops, however, did participate in mass rapes after the fall of Berlin and West Germany as well, only to a lesser extent. Many of the Allied forces' soldiers were court martialed on the account of their involvement in mass rapes of German women. Yet, they were given a free reign in the first few days. Soviet Army was given a longer "leeway" in their rampage after which those involved in rapes and other atrocities were also court martialed. Again, the most cited reason is revenge for the murdering of 27+ million Soviet citizens. Personally, I can't accept revenge as a rationalisation of events. > […] did you wonder why it was called the Continuation War? Yes, I did ponder the very same question; yet, I am at a loss. Finland attacking back the Soviets on its own to regain previous losses and calling that The Continuation War? Yes, I can see a merit in that. Finland opportunistically siding with Nazi Germany, creating a pretext rooted in the nationalistic rhetoric and the Finnish epic poetry for the ethnic cleansing? No, it is a separate undertaking and not a continuation war (note the spelling).
hypertele-Xii 5y ago
The soviet union illegally and unprovoked invaded Finland in 1939 and conquered territory. Then: On 22 June 1941, Germany launched an invasion of the Soviet Union. Three days later, the Soviet Union conducted an air raid on Finnish cities, prompting Finland to declare war and allow German troops stationed in Finland to begin offensive warfare. By September 1941, Finland had regained its post–Winter War concessions to the Soviet Union: the Karelian Isthmus and Ladoga Karelia. However, the Finnish Army continued the offensive past the pre-1939 border during the conquest of East Karelia, including Petrozavodsk, and halted only around 30–32 km (19–20 mi) from the centre of Leningrad. It participated in besieging the city by cutting the northern supply routes and by digging in until 1944. So the war you are talking about started with, again, the soviet union bombing Finland. We got hella mad and pushed them back, reclaiming our lost territories. Did we march further into russia than we needed to? Sure. Was there precedent? Absolutely. Am I a bigot for hating russians? Fuck no. Some prisoners of war dying of malnutrition or disease is hardly an evil act from a tiny nation of farmers struggling to feed themselves while fighting to survive invasion from russia.

philwelch 5y ago

And what would you suggest we do? Murder every Russian man and rape every Russian woman as collective retribution? Besides, how many Ukrainians were in the Red Army that invaded Finland in 1939? And what was the nationality of the man who ordered that invasion? By your logic, Russians, Ukrainians, and Georgians are all your enemies, so why take a side when they are fighting between themselves? My moral stance here is to remember the distinction between a people and a regime. It’s the opposite of what the “woke” do; in fact, many of the “woke” wholeheartedly agree with you.

hypertele-Xii 5y ago
> And what would you suggest we do? Stop calling justified hate "bigotry". That's all. That's what I was accused of.
- philwelch 5y ago
  Indiscriminate hatred towards people you don’t even know, purely on the basis of what country they were born in, qualifies as bigotry. You can hold the opinion that it’s justified in this particular instance, but it is still bigotry.