10 ms·

Who killed videogames?

281 points by cavalcade 15y ago

palish 15y ago
Probably off topic, but hooey on that: If you want to play an absolute gem of a game, go grab Cave Story. It's free, and it's "fun", in the most distilled form. http://www.cavestory.org/ http://www.cavestory.org/ It's one of those games that makes you wish you could wipe your memory --- just to re-play it again for the first time.
- thristian 15y ago
  The author of the original post also wrote a review of Cave Story. It's long and rambly and exasperated, more impressionistic than informative, but it's a good read: http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=416 http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=416 Why did Pixel make this game? Like, why the fuck? The amount of loving attention to detail that went into this game indicates that the man, beyond a shadow of a doubt, possesses the mental fortitude befitting a researcher in a facility in Antarctica, delving into the permafrost, seeking the Cure For All Cancers. Why did Pixel bother making a videogame, when God had given him this situational opportunity to Literally Save The World? At the very least, the man could have sought out the Ultimate Toothbrushing Solution — a three-second-a-day quick rinse that eliminates the need to brush your teeth, while also keeping them sparkling white. (It’d be like those antibacterial hand-wash-lotion things, only for your mouth.) Instead, he made a videogame.
  - 3oheme 15y ago
    I nearly lost my eyes trying to read that blog :-(
    - thristian 15y ago
      Clicking the "action button" at the top (the big orange one) cycles through a few different themes; if all else fails, Readable/Readability work OK.
      - 3oheme 15y ago
        Thanks!
- seagaia 15y ago
  Cave Story is an incredible game. I'm pretty happy it's becoming more popular now (the 3DS version, the Wii-ware remake) so more people can experience it. I know around '07 there was a pretty large modding community making some real nice mods. I'm pretty sure it must be around still. Also, Pixel (the creator of Cave Story) even made this program that lets you compose songs. It's a kind of tracker, but it's real good for some types of video game music, it's called PxTone.
  - mkr-hn 15y ago
    I've been looking for a good way to make chiptune-esque music. PxTone is perfect.
- losvedir 15y ago
  Well, on your recommendation here I gave it a whirl for the past hour or so. Wow, it is quite fun! Thanks, it's a nice way to spend a Saturday morning. But now I have to get back to cleaning and sundry other less fun things.. :-(
- dkersten 15y ago
  I'd never heard of this until now. Just played it for the past half hour and its an incredibly fun game! Thanks for sharing! For the first section or so, I didn't think it was all that fun, but after you get into it a bit, it gets pretty good.
- rottendoubt 15y ago
  Downloading now. Will give it a try. Thanks!
cavalcade 15y ago
I am not sure if the comparison holds but this FEELS like how bankers created derivatives. Its warping something from the inside out just to get some greed fuel.
- jim_kaiser 15y ago
  This could be the next generation of casino games.. the house always wins.
  - palish 15y ago
    And in this case, the wager isn't cash; it's life.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
  - mladenkovacevic 15y ago
    Not casino games.. CASINOS 2 limitation that casinos have right now is that they are only allowed to lure in people over the age of 21, and that it takes time and work to travel to one. These "games" are trying to put a real-life, genuine casino in the pocket of every man, woman and child and get them hooked. Slot machine and roulette tables are being replaced by imaginary farms and petting zoos.
    - patio11 15y ago
      We also have thousands of years of social antibodies for gambling, but none for FarmVille. Nobody in my family would offer a nephew the opportunity to get into debt to a casino in return for a pink roulette wheel, but the FarmVille analog hasn't been e.g. the focus of Sunday sermons for a lifetime.
michaelbuckbee 15y ago
We, myself most definitely included, are all part of this. On this site we love (ohmygoddowloveit), AB Testing, metrics tracking and all that goes along with it. "Games getting more addictive" is very similar to "We used Abingo and this is what got the most responses." I'm not saying this is bad so much as it doesn't represent everything and that there is a point between pandering to people and providing a service.
- InclinedPlane 15y ago
  Excellent observation. A/B testing has no implicit morality. Indeed, driven to its logical conclusion it could result in your business engaging in spam, fraud, or encouragement of addictive behavior. A/B testing is best used as sandpaper, to round off sharp corners, if you just let evolution guide your product with a free hand you are just as likely to end up with a giraffe as with a black mamba.
  - marshray 15y ago
    Oooh I want to play that game! Somebody please make it: Giraffes vs Mambas
- mattgreenrocks 15y ago
  > there is a point between pandering to people and providing a service. Good insight. People cry foul when they perceive a service to have gone too far in the direction of pandering. And I feel like products that tend toward that end up seeming empty and derivative. There's a certain level of non-imagination that things that were extensively focus group tested seems to elicit. You can almost perceive how safe they are trying to be. And the terrible thing is that they succeed at it. It's not a popular opinion, but I'd be more interested in seeing products that were not as reliant on A/B testing. I'd prefer to see more iterative approaches taken. Users are saddled with a certain mental model about how things work, and may not be able to think clearly enough about the problem to realize there's a better way to do things...if we forget about all of we think we should know.
HaloZero 15y ago
The sad thing is, it's not even social games anymore. TF2 and Heroes of Newerth both became free in order to sell more premium "can't wait" for it goods. Valve even has job listings for economists and psychologists now.
- crystalis 15y ago
  There's a meaningful distinction between 'pay to play' "can't wait" farmville, 'pay to play' random drop, tradeable, gameplay-available goods a la tf2, 'pay to play' cosmetics a la tf2 hats and hon skins, and 'pay to play' in-game advantages a la a lot of Korean MMOs and HoN's early-access hero stuff. Valve is toeing the line, HoN is straddling it, and Korean MMOs and "social" games have thumbed their nose at it.
  - HaloZero 15y ago
    I'm pointing out the fact that Valve has started to toe the line, Heroes of Newerth is straddling it, both of them didn't use to.
    - crystalis 15y ago
      But what Valve is doing is an improvement over the status quo, and social games are a regression from the status quo. TF2, by and large, didn't get worse by letting more people play it for less money - lots of value was created, and Valve is content to only capture a small* amount that came along for the ride. *Many games that have gone F2P (in a generally benign way) report increasing revenues, e.g., Lord of the Rings Online, D&D Online, etc.
- patricklynch 15y ago
  In the case of TF2, this has really hurt my ability to enjoy the game. Since they made it free and added a thousand new items, there are vastly more new (less skilled) players, many games are spammed in both text and voice chat with offers to trade, and every game is a circus act of ridiculous hats. With the exception of private clan servers, there's really no way to make sure you're joining a game with focused and skillful players.
seagaia 15y ago
It's kind of gross how that market of games is growing. It's really quite terrible, but at the same time genius, at least in the metric of making money. At the same time I don't think there is a need to worry about the gaming industry being overtaken with that dirt - indie games have really been keeping my hope up with video games as a creative outlet. Lots of really wonderful stuff and wonderful people behind the works - here are some nice sites for finding such games. http://indiegames.com/index.html http://indiegames.com/index.html http://gamejolt.com/ http://gamejolt.com/
5hoom 15y ago
This kind of thing is admirable in a machiavellian evil kind of way. It is amazing to think of the thought & effort that goes into making a title as infuriatingly awful (yet unarguably profitable) as some of these ville/hotel/zoo grinding games. I bet someone somewhere is laughing & twirling their moustache.
rooshdi 15y ago
Last fun game I played was Shenmue II about 8 or 9 years ago. It had it all - story, gameplay, art direction, cinematics, soundtrack, emotion, everything, that is, except profitability. Thus, Sega cancelled the series and I haven't played a game as genuinely enjoyable since. It's sad to say, but some fun games just don't make good business games.
- dereg 15y ago
  I feel the same way about Heavy Rain. No other PS3 game has brought me close to the feeling of playing that game.
  - rooshdi 15y ago
    Yea, I haven't played Heavy Rain, but I heard it resembles Shenmue in a lot of ways with the QTEs, branching story, and cinematics. Might have to save up for a PS3 now, especially since Shenmue III will probably never see the light of day.
taybervoyer 15y ago
As someone who balances a free to play social game on Facebook everyday I find this kind of generalization short sighted and demeaning. The nuances of creating a social free to play game go far beyond this simplistic narrative. A compelling user experience that engages non-paying users and convinces some players to convert is WAY more challenging than most people understand. ESPECIALLY if you care about your community. The tools you HAVE to use are based on metrics and data. But you don't sacrifice fun. In the end you are still selling fun. If it isn't fun, people won't PLAY it... In the end though... it isn't art, it's all just entertainment.
- yvdriess 15y ago
  Hey, want to click my cow?
- ido 15y ago
  In the end though... it isn't art, it's all just entertainment. Maybe your game is, but not all games are.
- henrikschroder 15y ago
  > If it isn't fun, people won't PLAY it... The whole point of this article is that yes they do, and yes you can extract money from them anyway.
- rsaarelm 15y ago
  Do you play the social games yourself, for fun, not just for work reasons? My biggest take-away from the article was that people who make traditional video games try to make more of the sort of games they themselves would like to play and people who make social games are trying to make money from a group of people they probably don't see themselves belonging in.
snprbob86 15y ago
I used to play way too many video games. I broke the habit by refusing to buy games that didn't fit a very particular set of criteria: They have to be... - single-player, - story-based campaigns - with a target completion time under 30 hours - and a Metacritic score above 85%. This way, I can play 5 to 10 games per calendar year without a dramatic dent on my social or professional lives. I've been doing this for the last 3 years and my annual gameplay time is probably somewhere around 100 hours. Some tricks: Convince yourself that all side quests are for losers without better things to do. That may or may not be true, but it's helpful to avoid spending way too much time on any particular game. Aim for the ending credits & then when you get there, stick the game back in its case and put it on the shelf. Don't leave it in your console. Don't even try the multiplayer versus modes. Just don't do it. Pretend that menu option isn't even there. Those modes are intentionally addicting. And if you really prefer multiplayer, or if you simply can't avoid that attractive menu option... then set an alarm before you start playing. Press snooze when it goes off, finish your round, and then STOP PLAYING. If the snooze alarm goes off, turn the console off mid-round. Try to find great co-op games & schedule time with a friend to play them. This lets you overlap human-contact time & gaming time.
- jhickner 15y ago
  Wow, those are almost the exact same criteria I've adopted since having kids. My list of games that have hit the bar in the last 10 years or so: - Half-Life Series - BioShock Series - Fallout Series - Deus Ex Series - Elder Scrolls Series Those are the ones that immediately jump to mind. I'd hate to have missed those. There are plenty of awful games out there, but there are also some wonderful storytellers advancing the field first mapped out by games like zork.
  - llambda 15y ago
    The Elder Scrolls is probably the last modern D&D-like RPG I really look forward to. Since Baldur's Gate it just hasn't been the same. But Morrowind was pretty groundbreaking and Oblivion was great. I have to admit I'm looking forward to Skyrim!
  - bendotc 15y ago
asr 15y ago
A good Saturday read. The incentives developers face when designing free-to-play games do indeed lead to games that are no fun. But I actually think many game genres are getting less addictive. It used to be that distribution of games was so expensive that there was little money to be made without catering to the hardcore gamers (I use that loaded term to mean someone who is willing to spend huge amounts of time on a game)--so games often took forever to complete and were designed to be most fun if played in 5-hour chunks. Now, with internet distribution and marketing, some indie game designer can design smaller games and sell them for $10. So there's a place in the market for smart games designed to be played in less time. And, unlike the pusher-addict economics of social games, the low cost of distribution is win-win and not going away. Indeed, as it becomes easier and easier for a small team or single developer to make good games, this trend should only accelerate.
- rhizome 15y ago
  I imagine the reason why free-ish games tend toward the unfun si that "fun" is defined in a business model as a profit center. For them to be fun, you have to pay, and I'm guessing this is actually a specific goal in these companies. Any feature that is brought up to be introduced has all the fun elements methodically shunted into the pay-zone.
zobzu 15y ago
And there I am still playing Quake because: - achievements don't matter - instant play - a game is 10min - its fun - no experience points - no DLC - nothing to collect Subscription brings you more maps. Oh shall I mention, that Quake doesn't make enough money ?
- jeffool 15y ago
  I was saddened when Carmack mentioned at QuakeCon that there were no plans to give QuakeLive.com the love it so obviously needs. Being so skill-based (as opposed to loot based) though, it really does seem to lack the appeal other games have for many players. That's a shame.
nhangen 15y ago
Yes, games like that suck, but I don't find them addicting. Perhaps there is a certain type of casual gamer that likes them, but to me, they're far too obvious to be interesting. However, I do still find games on both my iPhone/iPad combo and on console. Humble Bundle's games are great too. Just picked up a copy of Rage last night...good stuff. And though I find WoW slightly addicting, it's still a great one.
jneal 15y ago
There are multiple awesome video games every year. This post seems to be describing Facebook games or one genre of games in a generalization of the entire industry. As an avid gamer and big fan of the industry this post's title/conclusion is appalling. Also, it's quite easy to play video games and still have time to learn things and further your skills for your career. I'm a dad, a gamer, and a programmer, and I love it.
jonnathanson 15y ago
I have to wonder when this whole trend is going to come crashing to a halt. When, if ever, the social-gaming population will wake up one day and think, perhaps aloud, and perhaps at great volume, "What the fuck am I doing with my life? Why do I need more virtual corn patches?" And, perhaps, "You know what? I'm not accepting the Facebook invitation into little Mikey's mafia family. Fuck that noise. I'm out." By this, what I really mean is: when someone finally gets sick of Farmville, is he going to move on to the next Farmville, or is he burned out on the genre for good? Seems like there should be a "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" dynamic at work with players of these games. Which would mean that the genre is destined for oversaturation and burnout, and that there will be diminishing returns awaiting any marginal entrants into the field. I'm sure the genre, as a whole, is still growing by leaps and bounds. But do we have any leading indicators about the playerbase? Such as their likelihood to be investing in more than one time-sinkey social game at a time? Or their likelihood to pick up another after quitting the first? I'm not wishing for the demise of the genre, but rather, am hoping that it'll hit a plateau from which it will be forced to innovate, experiment, and evolve. Seems to me that the cold, reductionist design philosophy of addiction-by-the-numbers should eventually dig its own grave in the form of mass player burnout on games produced as such. Then again, that's never happened with casinos. So this may be woefully naive thinking on my part.
- benologist 15y ago
  I think they're going to pick up another one, and another one, and another one, and another one. Many of us have been playing games for 20+ years, just because they're not social doesn't mean the story isn't the same: spend $x, then a buttload of time playing it. I probably spent as much time playing the Ultimas, King's Quests etc as any hardcore addict spent on whatevervilles. Probably not as much money on a single game but certainly 1000s over the years.
  - jonnathanson 15y ago
    "I probably spent as much time playing the Ultimas, King's Quests etc as any hardcore addict spent on whatevervilles. Probably not as much money on a single game but certainly 1000s over the years." As have I, though certainly without the rote compulsion of a ____ville player. (Granted, I have watched friends and relatives zombified by World of Warcraft, and despite the surface layer of complexity separating it from ____ville, it's got the same dynamics at play). Call me nuts, but whenever I play a game, I'm at least having fun playing it. There may be timesinky aspects to it, and I may play more than a healthy amount, but it's not a morphine drip into a virtual IV hooked through my controller and into my arm. I believe there's a difference between most games and ____ville-type games, and that the difference is felt, at least subconsciously, by the player of the latter. He knows he's getting conned, but he doesn't care. My question is whether or not that dynamic can last indefinitely.
dimitar 15y ago
Good thing is that old games are still there, and you don't need expensive hardware to play them. Now I play 5 year old games with a GPU integrated into my CPU. And since I'm pretty casual as a gamer (a few times a month), I'm pretty content.
ericdykstra 15y ago
This is what makes a game like Starcraft 2 so great. Every player, regardless of time spent in the game, starts out with a level playing field. There is no incentive to play the next game except to get better. So how does Blizzard extract more money from you? They balance the game, update it frequently, and then don't charge you. And they hope your experience was so great that next time a Blizzard game is released you will know that it's a high quality game that will be supported for years. No gimmicks, no shortcuts, just gameplay.
- recursive 15y ago
  > So how does Blizzard extract more money from you? Because World of Warcraft.
  - notJim 15y ago
    Starcraft 2 and World of Warcraft are different games. This poster is referring to Starcraft 2, which does not charge a monthly fee.
- marshray 15y ago
  Starcraft II, wow. Is there something wrong with me that I found that game too difficult and stressful? I gave it an honest try, and it's certainly exciting, but once I found myself having made a huge stack of flash cards to study the relationships between unit types it started to feel a bit too much like work. Sort of the opposite of the "hook you slowly" dynamic. Anyone else have this experience? So how does Blizzard extract more money from you? Expansion packs. Wings of Liberty is just the first campaign of Starcraft II.
  - re_chief 15y ago
    I have a hard time with most "competitive" games (RTSs, fighters, FPSs, etc.) because people have a tendency to get a little too into them and sort of ruin them for more... I guess casual players? Like, I'm fine with playing a round or two of Generic Fighter X with my friends. What I'm not fine with is in-depth explanations of how to juggle and control vertical space while playing as Character Y. And I'm not saying this as a button-masher either -- I'm quite capable of learning combos and special moves and using them effectively. I'm just not willing to put the time into becoming crazy good at multiplayer games, which means I'll always be left in the dust by people who are willing to do so.
mcantor 15y ago
I find games like this utterly vapid and without any appeal whatsoever. I wonder if there's a name for the condition in which you are psychologically immune to these games, for whatever reason. I'm thankful I have it.
- roryokane 15y ago
  I was cured of the desire to play these kind of games by playing the game Upgrade Complete, at http://www.kongregate.com/games/ArmorGames/upgrade-complete http://www.kongregate.com/games/ArmorGames/upgrade-complete. I played Upgrade Complete until the abrupt ending. I found I felt annoyed that the game was over, and asked myself why. I realized all the playing of the game I had just done was pointless number-increasing – I think conveying that message is the point of Upgrade Complete. That inspired me avoid games with too much grinding and not enough more interesting parts like puzzles or story, and to use cheats whenever possible to skip the grinding.
  - jholman 15y ago
    ArmorGames has actually sponsored a number of those Flash games (all actually developed by the same guy), making fun of the obsessive tropes of the browser-based Flash mini-game crowd. Which is kind of bold, since ArmorGames is entirely in the business of profiting off that market. c.f. Upgrade Complete (I and II), Elephant Quest, This Is The Only Level (I and II), Achievement Unlocked (I and II). The really amusing bit to me is that not only are they bald-facedly mocking this addiction-oriented gameplay, they are simultaneously self-referentially some of the most fun games in that genre.
ditojim 15y ago
anyone on this thread looking for a game recommendation, check out minecraft.net. it has rekindled my interest in video games.
tatsuke95 15y ago
This was a pretty good read, and I agree with much of what was written. However I can't help but think a macro piece of the puzzle has been left out: status. WHY do people pay money for virtual goods? WHY do people assault friends with requests they know are annoying? WHY do people play games that aren't fun? The answer is status. From the outside looking in, we might think people spending real money within these games are crazy. But from the inside, there is a different game with different rules. And the players of theses game have accepted these rules. It may seem ridiculous to outsiders, but within the game there are sometimes millions of other players who create a culture of who and what is "good" or "bad". So just like in real life, "average" people are concerned with nothing more than accumulating crap and generating envy; being "good" at the game. The model for any Facebook game is easy: Provide a platform where people are able to quantitatively measure their value versus other people. Provide a clear means to increase that value. Sell them the means, and do it for $1 at a time. For most people, that's easier than putting a new BMW in the driveway for your neighbors to oggle.
- mattgreenrocks 15y ago
  Perhaps this is the nagging doubt I have about Facebook in general: with mainstream acceptance, it functions not as a platform for 'connecting' with one another, but instead as another vehicle of conformity and norms enforcement.
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yason 15y ago
Then play old games. I still regularly play Doom whenever I need to think about a solution for something. It's fun and the gameplay is instinctive, so you can let yourself think about things while playing.
alexkcd 15y ago
Jonathan Blow (creator of Braid) has an interesting rant on social video games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqFu5O-oPmU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqFu5O-oPmU The gist being that games like Farmville are A/B tested to maximize addictiveness and profit, rather than maximizing fun.
marshray 15y ago
I find Dwarf Fortress quite hard to get into, but smart friends are talking about it. So how would one describe DF in this framework?
- pshc 15y ago
  The creator of DF has spoken out against the evils of these games. I can't find the link though. And yet: There is just so much depth in DF that if you can play it at all, there is always something interesting to do, build, explore... I've pulled all-nighters playing it, trying to build the next coolest thing. With each season the game throws new triumphs and failures at you. It's not a social game, but the dwarves are individualized to the point that you might start empathizing with them. Disclaimer: I work for a social games company. EDIT: This may have been what I was talking about (though it's not actually a statement by Tarn): http://www.industrygamers.com/news/braid-creator-finds-social-game-development-evil/ http://www.industrygamers.com/news/braid-creator-finds-socia... “Some kinds of games are very clearly made [to give something] – like Dwarf Fortress is definitely trying to give the players something and not exploit players. That’s very obvious to me in the way that it’s made. [Most of these social games are] the opposite of that,” explained Blow. “It’s trying to take the maximum amount while trying to give the minimum amount. So that’s an ethics of game design question. To me it doesn’t matter if people feel like they’re having fun or feel like they want to play the game, because the designers know what they’re doing.”
  - marshray 15y ago
    Yeah, that's it. Thank you for explaining it that way. It reminds me of how I used to like movies and film, until I started noticing that money was changing hands to put product placements in them. Nothing ruins a move for me like the characters stating a brand advertising slogan or drinking from containers strategically positioned to display the label. It's more than just feeling cheated about having paid for the ticked and ending up watching advertising. It's the knowledge that the producer/director wasn't making the movie to be the best it could be.
- ShardPhoenix 15y ago
  It's more simulation than game, but one of the most intricate and detailed simulations ever. Personally I lost interest once I realized there was no real goal or point to it, but a lot of people like the sandbox feel.
pnathan 15y ago
I've become pretty harsh on video games in general. I wasted a lot of my life in WoW, and I've seen a couple other people waste their brilliant minds on video game playing. If it doesn't contribute to interpersonal, personal, or societial good, I don't want to play it. I've gotten my 'video game' fix by playing pen and paper RPGs and meeting new people. These days, I read history books for my "long-term amusement" and wouldn't mind playing video games with long-distance family (they don't play though). Remember Steve Yegge's talk this summer. Please, do something more uplifting than incrementing a digital counter.
- bostonvaulter2 15y ago
  You could try playing FoldIt, at least you would be contributing to society. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110918144955.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110918144955.ht...
fleitz 15y ago
These games are the embodiment of a generation raised on the idea that when the bell rings you change classes and at the end of thew week you get a gold star if you did all the things you were supposed to. It puts them right back into a safe world where if the follow the rules they get rewarded.
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JonnieCache 15y ago
This sums up perfectly why people hate neoliberalism/capitalism so much.

281 points by cavalcade 15y ago

Probably off topic, but hooey on that: If you want to play an absolute gem of a game, go grab Cave Story. It's free, and it's "fun", in the most distilled form. http://www.cavestory.org/ http://www.cavestory.org/ It's one of those games that makes you wish you could wipe your memory --- just to re-play it again for the first time.

thristian 15y ago
The author of the original post also wrote a review of Cave Story. It's long and rambly and exasperated, more impressionistic than informative, but it's a good read: http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=416 http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=416 Why did Pixel make this game? Like, why the fuck? The amount of loving attention to detail that went into this game indicates that the man, beyond a shadow of a doubt, possesses the mental fortitude befitting a researcher in a facility in Antarctica, delving into the permafrost, seeking the Cure For All Cancers. Why did Pixel bother making a videogame, when God had given him this situational opportunity to Literally Save The World? At the very least, the man could have sought out the Ultimate Toothbrushing Solution — a three-second-a-day quick rinse that eliminates the need to brush your teeth, while also keeping them sparkling white. (It’d be like those antibacterial hand-wash-lotion things, only for your mouth.) Instead, he made a videogame.
- 3oheme 15y ago
  I nearly lost my eyes trying to read that blog :-(
  - thristian 15y ago
    Clicking the "action button" at the top (the big orange one) cycles through a few different themes; if all else fails, Readable/Readability work OK.
    - 3oheme 15y ago
      Thanks!
seagaia 15y ago
Cave Story is an incredible game. I'm pretty happy it's becoming more popular now (the 3DS version, the Wii-ware remake) so more people can experience it. I know around '07 there was a pretty large modding community making some real nice mods. I'm pretty sure it must be around still. Also, Pixel (the creator of Cave Story) even made this program that lets you compose songs. It's a kind of tracker, but it's real good for some types of video game music, it's called PxTone.
- mkr-hn 15y ago
  I've been looking for a good way to make chiptune-esque music. PxTone is perfect.
losvedir 15y ago
Well, on your recommendation here I gave it a whirl for the past hour or so. Wow, it is quite fun! Thanks, it's a nice way to spend a Saturday morning. But now I have to get back to cleaning and sundry other less fun things.. :-(
dkersten 15y ago
I'd never heard of this until now. Just played it for the past half hour and its an incredibly fun game! Thanks for sharing! For the first section or so, I didn't think it was all that fun, but after you get into it a bit, it gets pretty good.
rottendoubt 15y ago
Downloading now. Will give it a try. Thanks!

cavalcade 15y ago

I am not sure if the comparison holds but this FEELS like how bankers created derivatives. Its warping something from the inside out just to get some greed fuel.

jim_kaiser 15y ago
This could be the next generation of casino games.. the house always wins.
- palish 15y ago
  And in this case, the wager isn't cash; it's life.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- mladenkovacevic 15y ago
  Not casino games.. CASINOS 2 limitation that casinos have right now is that they are only allowed to lure in people over the age of 21, and that it takes time and work to travel to one. These "games" are trying to put a real-life, genuine casino in the pocket of every man, woman and child and get them hooked. Slot machine and roulette tables are being replaced by imaginary farms and petting zoos.
  - patio11 15y ago
    We also have thousands of years of social antibodies for gambling, but none for FarmVille. Nobody in my family would offer a nephew the opportunity to get into debt to a casino in return for a pink roulette wheel, but the FarmVille analog hasn't been e.g. the focus of Sunday sermons for a lifetime.

michaelbuckbee 15y ago

We, myself most definitely included, are all part of this. On this site we love (ohmygoddowloveit), AB Testing, metrics tracking and all that goes along with it. "Games getting more addictive" is very similar to "We used Abingo and this is what got the most responses." I'm not saying this is bad so much as it doesn't represent everything and that there is a point between pandering to people and providing a service.

InclinedPlane 15y ago
Excellent observation. A/B testing has no implicit morality. Indeed, driven to its logical conclusion it could result in your business engaging in spam, fraud, or encouragement of addictive behavior. A/B testing is best used as sandpaper, to round off sharp corners, if you just let evolution guide your product with a free hand you are just as likely to end up with a giraffe as with a black mamba.
- marshray 15y ago
  Oooh I want to play that game! Somebody please make it: Giraffes vs Mambas
mattgreenrocks 15y ago
> there is a point between pandering to people and providing a service. Good insight. People cry foul when they perceive a service to have gone too far in the direction of pandering. And I feel like products that tend toward that end up seeming empty and derivative. There's a certain level of non-imagination that things that were extensively focus group tested seems to elicit. You can almost perceive how safe they are trying to be. And the terrible thing is that they succeed at it. It's not a popular opinion, but I'd be more interested in seeing products that were not as reliant on A/B testing. I'd prefer to see more iterative approaches taken. Users are saddled with a certain mental model about how things work, and may not be able to think clearly enough about the problem to realize there's a better way to do things...if we forget about all of we think we should know.

HaloZero 15y ago

The sad thing is, it's not even social games anymore. TF2 and Heroes of Newerth both became free in order to sell more premium "can't wait" for it goods. Valve even has job listings for economists and psychologists now.

crystalis 15y ago
There's a meaningful distinction between 'pay to play' "can't wait" farmville, 'pay to play' random drop, tradeable, gameplay-available goods a la tf2, 'pay to play' cosmetics a la tf2 hats and hon skins, and 'pay to play' in-game advantages a la a lot of Korean MMOs and HoN's early-access hero stuff. Valve is toeing the line, HoN is straddling it, and Korean MMOs and "social" games have thumbed their nose at it.
- HaloZero 15y ago
  I'm pointing out the fact that Valve has started to toe the line, Heroes of Newerth is straddling it, both of them didn't use to.
  - crystalis 15y ago
    But what Valve is doing is an improvement over the status quo, and social games are a regression from the status quo. TF2, by and large, didn't get worse by letting more people play it for less money - lots of value was created, and Valve is content to only capture a small* amount that came along for the ride. *Many games that have gone F2P (in a generally benign way) report increasing revenues, e.g., Lord of the Rings Online, D&D Online, etc.
patricklynch 15y ago
In the case of TF2, this has really hurt my ability to enjoy the game. Since they made it free and added a thousand new items, there are vastly more new (less skilled) players, many games are spammed in both text and voice chat with offers to trade, and every game is a circus act of ridiculous hats. With the exception of private clan servers, there's really no way to make sure you're joining a game with focused and skillful players.

seagaia 15y ago

It's kind of gross how that market of games is growing. It's really quite terrible, but at the same time genius, at least in the metric of making money. At the same time I don't think there is a need to worry about the gaming industry being overtaken with that dirt - indie games have really been keeping my hope up with video games as a creative outlet. Lots of really wonderful stuff and wonderful people behind the works - here are some nice sites for finding such games. http://indiegames.com/index.html http://indiegames.com/index.html http://gamejolt.com/ http://gamejolt.com/

5hoom 15y ago

This kind of thing is admirable in a machiavellian evil kind of way. It is amazing to think of the thought & effort that goes into making a title as infuriatingly awful (yet unarguably profitable) as some of these ville/hotel/zoo grinding games. I bet someone somewhere is laughing & twirling their moustache.

rooshdi 15y ago

Last fun game I played was Shenmue II about 8 or 9 years ago. It had it all - story, gameplay, art direction, cinematics, soundtrack, emotion, everything, that is, except profitability. Thus, Sega cancelled the series and I haven't played a game as genuinely enjoyable since. It's sad to say, but some fun games just don't make good business games.

dereg 15y ago
I feel the same way about Heavy Rain. No other PS3 game has brought me close to the feeling of playing that game.
- rooshdi 15y ago
  Yea, I haven't played Heavy Rain, but I heard it resembles Shenmue in a lot of ways with the QTEs, branching story, and cinematics. Might have to save up for a PS3 now, especially since Shenmue III will probably never see the light of day.

taybervoyer 15y ago

As someone who balances a free to play social game on Facebook everyday I find this kind of generalization short sighted and demeaning. The nuances of creating a social free to play game go far beyond this simplistic narrative. A compelling user experience that engages non-paying users and convinces some players to convert is WAY more challenging than most people understand. ESPECIALLY if you care about your community. The tools you HAVE to use are based on metrics and data. But you don't sacrifice fun. In the end you are still selling fun. If it isn't fun, people won't PLAY it... In the end though... it isn't art, it's all just entertainment.

yvdriess 15y ago
Hey, want to click my cow?
ido 15y ago
In the end though... it isn't art, it's all just entertainment. Maybe your game is, but not all games are.
henrikschroder 15y ago
> If it isn't fun, people won't PLAY it... The whole point of this article is that yes they do, and yes you can extract money from them anyway.
rsaarelm 15y ago
Do you play the social games yourself, for fun, not just for work reasons? My biggest take-away from the article was that people who make traditional video games try to make more of the sort of games they themselves would like to play and people who make social games are trying to make money from a group of people they probably don't see themselves belonging in.

snprbob86 15y ago

I used to play way too many video games. I broke the habit by refusing to buy games that didn't fit a very particular set of criteria: They have to be... - single-player, - story-based campaigns - with a target completion time under 30 hours - and a Metacritic score above 85%. This way, I can play 5 to 10 games per calendar year without a dramatic dent on my social or professional lives. I've been doing this for the last 3 years and my annual gameplay time is probably somewhere around 100 hours. Some tricks: Convince yourself that all side quests are for losers without better things to do. That may or may not be true, but it's helpful to avoid spending way too much time on any particular game. Aim for the ending credits & then when you get there, stick the game back in its case and put it on the shelf. Don't leave it in your console. Don't even try the multiplayer versus modes. Just don't do it. Pretend that menu option isn't even there. Those modes are intentionally addicting. And if you really prefer multiplayer, or if you simply can't avoid that attractive menu option... then set an alarm before you start playing. Press snooze when it goes off, finish your round, and then STOP PLAYING. If the snooze alarm goes off, turn the console off mid-round. Try to find great co-op games & schedule time with a friend to play them. This lets you overlap human-contact time & gaming time.

jhickner 15y ago
Wow, those are almost the exact same criteria I've adopted since having kids. My list of games that have hit the bar in the last 10 years or so: - Half-Life Series - BioShock Series - Fallout Series - Deus Ex Series - Elder Scrolls Series Those are the ones that immediately jump to mind. I'd hate to have missed those. There are plenty of awful games out there, but there are also some wonderful storytellers advancing the field first mapped out by games like zork.
- llambda 15y ago
  The Elder Scrolls is probably the last modern D&D-like RPG I really look forward to. Since Baldur's Gate it just hasn't been the same. But Morrowind was pretty groundbreaking and Oblivion was great. I have to admit I'm looking forward to Skyrim!
- bendotc 15y ago

asr 15y ago

A good Saturday read. The incentives developers face when designing free-to-play games do indeed lead to games that are no fun. But I actually think many game genres are getting less addictive. It used to be that distribution of games was so expensive that there was little money to be made without catering to the hardcore gamers (I use that loaded term to mean someone who is willing to spend huge amounts of time on a game)--so games often took forever to complete and were designed to be most fun if played in 5-hour chunks. Now, with internet distribution and marketing, some indie game designer can design smaller games and sell them for $10. So there's a place in the market for smart games designed to be played in less time. And, unlike the pusher-addict economics of social games, the low cost of distribution is win-win and not going away. Indeed, as it becomes easier and easier for a small team or single developer to make good games, this trend should only accelerate.

rhizome 15y ago
I imagine the reason why free-ish games tend toward the unfun si that "fun" is defined in a business model as a profit center. For them to be fun, you have to pay, and I'm guessing this is actually a specific goal in these companies. Any feature that is brought up to be introduced has all the fun elements methodically shunted into the pay-zone.

zobzu 15y ago

And there I am still playing Quake because: - achievements don't matter - instant play - a game is 10min - its fun - no experience points - no DLC - nothing to collect Subscription brings you more maps. Oh shall I mention, that Quake doesn't make enough money ?

jeffool 15y ago
I was saddened when Carmack mentioned at QuakeCon that there were no plans to give QuakeLive.com the love it so obviously needs. Being so skill-based (as opposed to loot based) though, it really does seem to lack the appeal other games have for many players. That's a shame.

nhangen 15y ago

Yes, games like that suck, but I don't find them addicting. Perhaps there is a certain type of casual gamer that likes them, but to me, they're far too obvious to be interesting. However, I do still find games on both my iPhone/iPad combo and on console. Humble Bundle's games are great too. Just picked up a copy of Rage last night...good stuff. And though I find WoW slightly addicting, it's still a great one.

jneal 15y ago

There are multiple awesome video games every year. This post seems to be describing Facebook games or one genre of games in a generalization of the entire industry. As an avid gamer and big fan of the industry this post's title/conclusion is appalling. Also, it's quite easy to play video games and still have time to learn things and further your skills for your career. I'm a dad, a gamer, and a programmer, and I love it.

jonnathanson 15y ago

I have to wonder when this whole trend is going to come crashing to a halt. When, if ever, the social-gaming population will wake up one day and think, perhaps aloud, and perhaps at great volume, "What the fuck am I doing with my life? Why do I need more virtual corn patches?" And, perhaps, "You know what? I'm not accepting the Facebook invitation into little Mikey's mafia family. Fuck that noise. I'm out." By this, what I really mean is: when someone finally gets sick of Farmville, is he going to move on to the next Farmville, or is he burned out on the genre for good? Seems like there should be a "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" dynamic at work with players of these games. Which would mean that the genre is destined for oversaturation and burnout, and that there will be diminishing returns awaiting any marginal entrants into the field. I'm sure the genre, as a whole, is still growing by leaps and bounds. But do we have any leading indicators about the playerbase? Such as their likelihood to be investing in more than one time-sinkey social game at a time? Or their likelihood to pick up another after quitting the first? I'm not wishing for the demise of the genre, but rather, am hoping that it'll hit a plateau from which it will be forced to innovate, experiment, and evolve. Seems to me that the cold, reductionist design philosophy of addiction-by-the-numbers should eventually dig its own grave in the form of mass player burnout on games produced as such. Then again, that's never happened with casinos. So this may be woefully naive thinking on my part.

benologist 15y ago
I think they're going to pick up another one, and another one, and another one, and another one. Many of us have been playing games for 20+ years, just because they're not social doesn't mean the story isn't the same: spend $x, then a buttload of time playing it. I probably spent as much time playing the Ultimas, King's Quests etc as any hardcore addict spent on whatevervilles. Probably not as much money on a single game but certainly 1000s over the years.
- jonnathanson 15y ago
  "I probably spent as much time playing the Ultimas, King's Quests etc as any hardcore addict spent on whatevervilles. Probably not as much money on a single game but certainly 1000s over the years." As have I, though certainly without the rote compulsion of a ____ville player. (Granted, I have watched friends and relatives zombified by World of Warcraft, and despite the surface layer of complexity separating it from ____ville, it's got the same dynamics at play). Call me nuts, but whenever I play a game, I'm at least having fun playing it. There may be timesinky aspects to it, and I may play more than a healthy amount, but it's not a morphine drip into a virtual IV hooked through my controller and into my arm. I believe there's a difference between most games and ____ville-type games, and that the difference is felt, at least subconsciously, by the player of the latter. He knows he's getting conned, but he doesn't care. My question is whether or not that dynamic can last indefinitely.

dimitar 15y ago

Good thing is that old games are still there, and you don't need expensive hardware to play them. Now I play 5 year old games with a GPU integrated into my CPU. And since I'm pretty casual as a gamer (a few times a month), I'm pretty content.

ericdykstra 15y ago

This is what makes a game like Starcraft 2 so great. Every player, regardless of time spent in the game, starts out with a level playing field. There is no incentive to play the next game except to get better. So how does Blizzard extract more money from you? They balance the game, update it frequently, and then don't charge you. And they hope your experience was so great that next time a Blizzard game is released you will know that it's a high quality game that will be supported for years. No gimmicks, no shortcuts, just gameplay.

recursive 15y ago
> So how does Blizzard extract more money from you? Because World of Warcraft.
- notJim 15y ago
  Starcraft 2 and World of Warcraft are different games. This poster is referring to Starcraft 2, which does not charge a monthly fee.
marshray 15y ago
Starcraft II, wow. Is there something wrong with me that I found that game too difficult and stressful? I gave it an honest try, and it's certainly exciting, but once I found myself having made a huge stack of flash cards to study the relationships between unit types it started to feel a bit too much like work. Sort of the opposite of the "hook you slowly" dynamic. Anyone else have this experience? So how does Blizzard extract more money from you? Expansion packs. Wings of Liberty is just the first campaign of Starcraft II.
- re_chief 15y ago
  I have a hard time with most "competitive" games (RTSs, fighters, FPSs, etc.) because people have a tendency to get a little too into them and sort of ruin them for more... I guess casual players? Like, I'm fine with playing a round or two of Generic Fighter X with my friends. What I'm not fine with is in-depth explanations of how to juggle and control vertical space while playing as Character Y. And I'm not saying this as a button-masher either -- I'm quite capable of learning combos and special moves and using them effectively. I'm just not willing to put the time into becoming crazy good at multiplayer games, which means I'll always be left in the dust by people who are willing to do so.

mcantor 15y ago

I find games like this utterly vapid and without any appeal whatsoever. I wonder if there's a name for the condition in which you are psychologically immune to these games, for whatever reason. I'm thankful I have it.

roryokane 15y ago
I was cured of the desire to play these kind of games by playing the game Upgrade Complete, at http://www.kongregate.com/games/ArmorGames/upgrade-complete http://www.kongregate.com/games/ArmorGames/upgrade-complete. I played Upgrade Complete until the abrupt ending. I found I felt annoyed that the game was over, and asked myself why. I realized all the playing of the game I had just done was pointless number-increasing – I think conveying that message is the point of Upgrade Complete. That inspired me avoid games with too much grinding and not enough more interesting parts like puzzles or story, and to use cheats whenever possible to skip the grinding.
- jholman 15y ago
  ArmorGames has actually sponsored a number of those Flash games (all actually developed by the same guy), making fun of the obsessive tropes of the browser-based Flash mini-game crowd. Which is kind of bold, since ArmorGames is entirely in the business of profiting off that market. c.f. Upgrade Complete (I and II), Elephant Quest, This Is The Only Level (I and II), Achievement Unlocked (I and II). The really amusing bit to me is that not only are they bald-facedly mocking this addiction-oriented gameplay, they are simultaneously self-referentially some of the most fun games in that genre.

ditojim 15y ago

anyone on this thread looking for a game recommendation, check out minecraft.net. it has rekindled my interest in video games.

tatsuke95 15y ago

This was a pretty good read, and I agree with much of what was written. However I can't help but think a macro piece of the puzzle has been left out: status. WHY do people pay money for virtual goods? WHY do people assault friends with requests they know are annoying? WHY do people play games that aren't fun? The answer is status. From the outside looking in, we might think people spending real money within these games are crazy. But from the inside, there is a different game with different rules. And the players of theses game have accepted these rules. It may seem ridiculous to outsiders, but within the game there are sometimes millions of other players who create a culture of who and what is "good" or "bad". So just like in real life, "average" people are concerned with nothing more than accumulating crap and generating envy; being "good" at the game. The model for any Facebook game is easy: Provide a platform where people are able to quantitatively measure their value versus other people. Provide a clear means to increase that value. Sell them the means, and do it for $1 at a time. For most people, that's easier than putting a new BMW in the driveway for your neighbors to oggle.

mattgreenrocks 15y ago
Perhaps this is the nagging doubt I have about Facebook in general: with mainstream acceptance, it functions not as a platform for 'connecting' with one another, but instead as another vehicle of conformity and norms enforcement.

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yason 15y ago

Then play old games. I still regularly play Doom whenever I need to think about a solution for something. It's fun and the gameplay is instinctive, so you can let yourself think about things while playing.

alexkcd 15y ago

Jonathan Blow (creator of Braid) has an interesting rant on social video games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqFu5O-oPmU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqFu5O-oPmU The gist being that games like Farmville are A/B tested to maximize addictiveness and profit, rather than maximizing fun.

marshray 15y ago

I find Dwarf Fortress quite hard to get into, but smart friends are talking about it. So how would one describe DF in this framework?

pshc 15y ago
The creator of DF has spoken out against the evils of these games. I can't find the link though. And yet: There is just so much depth in DF that if you can play it at all, there is always something interesting to do, build, explore... I've pulled all-nighters playing it, trying to build the next coolest thing. With each season the game throws new triumphs and failures at you. It's not a social game, but the dwarves are individualized to the point that you might start empathizing with them. Disclaimer: I work for a social games company. EDIT: This may have been what I was talking about (though it's not actually a statement by Tarn): http://www.industrygamers.com/news/braid-creator-finds-social-game-development-evil/ http://www.industrygamers.com/news/braid-creator-finds-socia... “Some kinds of games are very clearly made [to give something] – like Dwarf Fortress is definitely trying to give the players something and not exploit players. That’s very obvious to me in the way that it’s made. [Most of these social games are] the opposite of that,” explained Blow. “It’s trying to take the maximum amount while trying to give the minimum amount. So that’s an ethics of game design question. To me it doesn’t matter if people feel like they’re having fun or feel like they want to play the game, because the designers know what they’re doing.”
- marshray 15y ago
  Yeah, that's it. Thank you for explaining it that way. It reminds me of how I used to like movies and film, until I started noticing that money was changing hands to put product placements in them. Nothing ruins a move for me like the characters stating a brand advertising slogan or drinking from containers strategically positioned to display the label. It's more than just feeling cheated about having paid for the ticked and ending up watching advertising. It's the knowledge that the producer/director wasn't making the movie to be the best it could be.
ShardPhoenix 15y ago
It's more simulation than game, but one of the most intricate and detailed simulations ever. Personally I lost interest once I realized there was no real goal or point to it, but a lot of people like the sandbox feel.

pnathan 15y ago

I've become pretty harsh on video games in general. I wasted a lot of my life in WoW, and I've seen a couple other people waste their brilliant minds on video game playing. If it doesn't contribute to interpersonal, personal, or societial good, I don't want to play it. I've gotten my 'video game' fix by playing pen and paper RPGs and meeting new people. These days, I read history books for my "long-term amusement" and wouldn't mind playing video games with long-distance family (they don't play though). Remember Steve Yegge's talk this summer. Please, do something more uplifting than incrementing a digital counter.

bostonvaulter2 15y ago
You could try playing FoldIt, at least you would be contributing to society. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110918144955.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110918144955.ht...

fleitz 15y ago

These games are the embodiment of a generation raised on the idea that when the bell rings you change classes and at the end of thew week you get a gold star if you did all the things you were supposed to. It puts them right back into a safe world where if the follow the rules they get rewarded.

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JonnieCache 15y ago

This sums up perfectly why people hate neoliberalism/capitalism so much.