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Right? And why point it out immediately the first time? Everyone messes up occasionally. No need to be habitually breathing down their neck. Rebuking an apology

Right? And why point it out immediately the first time? Everyone messes up occasionally. No need to be habitually breathing down their neck. Rebuking an apology just makes you sound like an asshole.

twayt 4y ago
This works as intended to alienate people who can’t keep the commitments they make. Both by actively eliminating them and passively making it a painful place for them to work. The people who can keep commitments they make would enjoy working there. I’m sure once they’ve developed a track record of keeping the commitments they make, it won’t be as draconian as it seems. However this disincentivizes the often productive approach of “throwing your hat over the fence” so to speak and committing to something you may not already know is achievable. Perhaps clearbit’s business model doesn’t hinge on their employees driving innovation and they need more predictable results at a reliable cadence. This approach doesn’t work for everyone or every company. This seems to be by design.
- ericb 4y ago
  Only management sufficiently divorced from reality can forget that "reality has a surprising amount of detail" https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/mckinsey-digital/our-insights/delivering-large-scale-it-projects-on-time-on-budget-and-on-value https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/mckinsey-digital... > suggests that half of all large IT projects—defined as those with initial price tags exceeding $15 million—massively blow their budgets. On average, large IT projects run 45 percent over budget and 7 percent over time, while delivering 56 percent less value than predicted. Software projects run the highest risk of cost and schedule overruns. So, either this clearbit management magic makes all the normal scaling and estimation problems go away magically, or it is a really toxic management approach.
  - blowski 4y ago
    If you’re not sure you can deliver something, don’t commit to it. Instead, provide confidence levels, increase confidence by doing the riskiest bits earlier, and give frequent status updates.
    - ericb 4y ago
      > Instead, provide confidence levels, increase confidence by doing the riskiest bits earlier, and give frequent status updates. Right--you're trying to choose the winning move: not to play. That's not really an option.
      - blowski 4y ago
        Effective management - both by the manager and the managed - is about avoiding such zero sum games. Look for the win-win and do your best to deliver it.
        ericb 4y ago
        This is fine advice, but the topic is the "manager's handbook" not other, better, management practices, so the advice is off-topic. Did you read the section in question? Advice about avoiding zero sum games isn't relevant to a discussion of a specific zero sum game prescribed by the manual we're discussing.
darkerside 4y ago
I agree rebuking an apology is weird. I do think it's good to point it out right away. How you do so depends on whether it mattered or not. If it mattered: I noticed you weren't able to get X done as planned. Marketing will need to postpone campaign Y which will affect our numbers for the quarter. Can you give me a heads up early next time? If it didn't: I noticed you weren't able to get X done as planned. It's not a big deal, but were there any blockers I can help clear for you? I want you to feel good about being able to deliver on your promises.

Right? And why point it out immediately the first time? Everyone messes up occasionally. No need to be habitually breathing down their neck. Rebuking an apology just makes you sound like an asshole.

twayt 4y ago

This works as intended to alienate people who can’t keep the commitments they make. Both by actively eliminating them and passively making it a painful place for them to work. The people who can keep commitments they make would enjoy working there. I’m sure once they’ve developed a track record of keeping the commitments they make, it won’t be as draconian as it seems. However this disincentivizes the often productive approach of “throwing your hat over the fence” so to speak and committing to something you may not already know is achievable. Perhaps clearbit’s business model doesn’t hinge on their employees driving innovation and they need more predictable results at a reliable cadence. This approach doesn’t work for everyone or every company. This seems to be by design.

ericb 4y ago
Only management sufficiently divorced from reality can forget that "reality has a surprising amount of detail" https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/mckinsey-digital/our-insights/delivering-large-scale-it-projects-on-time-on-budget-and-on-value https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/mckinsey-digital... > suggests that half of all large IT projects—defined as those with initial price tags exceeding $15 million—massively blow their budgets. On average, large IT projects run 45 percent over budget and 7 percent over time, while delivering 56 percent less value than predicted. Software projects run the highest risk of cost and schedule overruns. So, either this clearbit management magic makes all the normal scaling and estimation problems go away magically, or it is a really toxic management approach.
- blowski 4y ago
  If you’re not sure you can deliver something, don’t commit to it. Instead, provide confidence levels, increase confidence by doing the riskiest bits earlier, and give frequent status updates.
  - ericb 4y ago
    > Instead, provide confidence levels, increase confidence by doing the riskiest bits earlier, and give frequent status updates. Right--you're trying to choose the winning move: not to play. That's not really an option.
    - blowski 4y ago
      Effective management - both by the manager and the managed - is about avoiding such zero sum games. Look for the win-win and do your best to deliver it.
      - ericb 4y ago
        This is fine advice, but the topic is the "manager's handbook" not other, better, management practices, so the advice is off-topic. Did you read the section in question? Advice about avoiding zero sum games isn't relevant to a discussion of a specific zero sum game prescribed by the manual we're discussing.

darkerside 4y ago

I agree rebuking an apology is weird. I do think it's good to point it out right away. How you do so depends on whether it mattered or not. If it mattered: I noticed you weren't able to get X done as planned. Marketing will need to postpone campaign Y which will affect our numbers for the quarter. Can you give me a heads up early next time? If it didn't: I noticed you weren't able to get X done as planned. It's not a big deal, but were there any blockers I can help clear for you? I want you to feel good about being able to deliver on your promises.