4 ms·

Ask HN: How to overcome fear of the unknown when applying to jobs

22 points by adecentcoder 4y ago

I've been a developer at a pretty major American defence company (though i'm from and based in England) for around 3 years (2 years as a graduate/mid level developer, 1 year as a senior). They've been alright, for learning, have a ton of on hands experience with AWS/Kubernetes/messaging systems/multiple languages, but they don't really pay to the going market rate for a senior developer in the UK. I'm looking at applying elsewhere and I have ambitions to move to one of the larger tech companies. I applied to one of the major startup fin-tech companies in the UK not too long ago, interview process went pretty well, got to stage 5/6 and did very well in technical discussions (discussed messaging systems, transaction integrity with multiple approaches etc), however fell short in the programming task (a program heavily focused on a certain aspect of programming, something I didn't have a massive amount of experience with so got tripped up when trying to convey the intricate details of what exactly the program was doing, though it was completely functional). Since then, I've improved massively in that part of my skill set, however it has left me with a feeling/fear that I could apply to another company and face the same problem of getting tripped up by a single thing where my knowledge isn't up to scratch, despite my pretty abundant knowledge in other areas. Is this something commonly experienced and if so what can remedy it?

ComradePhil 4y ago
Did you ask the company that rejected you what the reason was? Did they tell you that it was the programming task or did you just assume it was? It is very likely that you did well, but one of the other candidates was a better fit overall... or had previous fin-tech experience or was slightly more experience... or something similar. You as a programmer aren't expected to know everything. If you encounter a company which expects you to know everything in a particular narrow area even though they know you have no prior experience in that exact area, you probably don't want to work with them anyway. Just go to an interview, do your best and don't worry too much about it. You are either a good fit for them or you aren't... and there are either better candidates than you or there aren't. There's not much you can do about those factors.
- adecentcoder 4y ago
  They gave direct feedback on aspects of the programming assessment, with both positive feedback and ultimately the reasons why they didn't take the process further (which essentially boiled down to lack of deep knowledge of how concurrency worked in a certain language). I guess my worry is that, like this one, I only apply to places I REALLY want to work at. Therefore if I don't get it, I feel like I've blown my shot and realistically can't apply again for another couple of years (whether thats true or not)
totony 4y ago
In my experience it does not matter if you have a weakness. Just acknowledge it and move on. The only reason someone would fail so late in an interview imo would be either we found someone better or the applicant didn't acknowledge that he didn't know or wasn't familiar with what we asked.
t-3 4y ago
It's normal to doubt yourself. Confidence in your skills is hard to gain, sometimes you just have to go ahead and try. Just like asking someone out, the worst they can do is say "no".
bredren 4y ago
It’s a numbers game. Even if you pass every technical portion with flying colors you could catch someone on the panel having a bad week that torpedo your opportunity for no reason at all. Just keep applying, and realize you may have gotten the job at that one you made stage 5/6 and found out the team was in fact toxic. Know your worth. They should be excited about you and your unique qualities the entire time and selling you on joining. If it doesn’t feel that way or you see or hear any red flags, pass on continuing the interview process. Doing this will help build your confidence and save you a lot of time. Being able to walk away is material to maintaining a high bar for what you expect from people you will be giving portions of your life to.
- jameshush 4y ago
  I was going to write something similar. It's a numbers game. Another way I look at it to make myself feel better is to think "I need 10 bad interviews before I find the good job". Then you don't focus on doing "well" or doing "bad", you just focus on going through the numbers. Just did interviews at two different companies about a month ago, first one bombarded me with OOP trivia questions for a front end React/JavaScript role. Another company the hiring manager burst out after 15 minutes of talking telling me I'd be perfect for the job and had me skip a step in the process. Don't second guess. Don't think too much. Just go through the process 10-20 times and you'll walk out the other end in a better place then you are now :-)
  - bredren 4y ago
    I would add that it can be very emotionally challenging to put yourself through this many times. If you do interview runs with 20 different companies you are very likely to be lied about the process, their interest in you, or neglect to share important context about the open role. You will be lowballed multiple times. It can be straight up awful and then only way to be able to compare those with an actual good opportunity is the hard way: giving them your all each time until you learn how to decline to move forward. There is a reason people don’t switch jobs. It’s hard. Expect that and parallelize the process do not apply to companies one at a time.
rapjr9 4y ago
Remember that you are evaluating the company you are applying for a job at as well as them vetting you. Did you talk to the people you would be working with and have a bunch of questions ready to ask them? Part of the evaluation of your fitness for a job should be HR asking the people you'd be working with if they'd get along with you and what their impression was. Making a good impression with those people can mean more than passing some artificial test. Also, if you provided a resume then they should know what you are good at. If they gave you a test that was outside those boundaries they are probably testing your adaptability. So just do your best in those circumstances. Aside from trying to learn every aspect of programming (which used to be possible, but no longer is) all you can do to prepare yourself is to be open minded and ready to try new things. If you feel you messed up in some particular test, discuss that with them and explain why. If they are reasonable people they will likely give you another chance if that test was important to them. It's no longer the case that companies have all the power in this relationship, there is a shortage of potential employees so failing one test out of many is not necessarily a problem as long as you show overall capability. Assemble a portfolio of code examples, diagrams of projects you've worked on (ask for an NDA to discuss them if they are proprietary), graphic screen captures, etc. as evidence to support your abilities and make your case. Having those materials gives you something to talk about also. If they are so focused on that one test that they won't hire you, then maybe you're not a good fit for the company or they for you. It's not a defeat, it was a mutual evaluation, and didn't work out. Move on to the next interview. On the other hand, if you inflated your resume and got caught on that (which happens pretty often, I've seen people with a little web building experience try to apply for scientific research positions that require really tough skills, though I'm not implying that was the case here, I just don't know) then stop lying and your success rate is likely to go up.
- adecentcoder 4y ago
  Great points, thank you. I don't inflate my resume, as I've interviewed a fair few people who've done that and have seen where it gets them. Unfortunately due to working in defense, I cant tell future employers the software I've worked on beyond technology stack and very vague implementation.
hackerfromthefu 4y ago
Sorry to be that guy, but how does one go from 2 years at graduate level to being a senior? I would respectfully say that it takes more years than that in every case even the best cases, short of completely exceptional. I think the interview feedback you mentioned in your comment, not the original post, is further evidence of that about lacking 'deep' knowledge in an aspect of programming - this kind of thing takes time working on real challenges to accumulate, and for people who have spent 5-10-20 years accumulating hard won experience, the bar to consider someone a senior may be a bit higher than 2 years. Of course this won't preclude you getting a great job, but it might be realistic to set your expectations in line with what others may consider also.

22 points by adecentcoder 4y ago

ComradePhil 4y ago

Did you ask the company that rejected you what the reason was? Did they tell you that it was the programming task or did you just assume it was? It is very likely that you did well, but one of the other candidates was a better fit overall... or had previous fin-tech experience or was slightly more experience... or something similar. You as a programmer aren't expected to know everything. If you encounter a company which expects you to know everything in a particular narrow area even though they know you have no prior experience in that exact area, you probably don't want to work with them anyway. Just go to an interview, do your best and don't worry too much about it. You are either a good fit for them or you aren't... and there are either better candidates than you or there aren't. There's not much you can do about those factors.

adecentcoder 4y ago
They gave direct feedback on aspects of the programming assessment, with both positive feedback and ultimately the reasons why they didn't take the process further (which essentially boiled down to lack of deep knowledge of how concurrency worked in a certain language). I guess my worry is that, like this one, I only apply to places I REALLY want to work at. Therefore if I don't get it, I feel like I've blown my shot and realistically can't apply again for another couple of years (whether thats true or not)

totony 4y ago

In my experience it does not matter if you have a weakness. Just acknowledge it and move on. The only reason someone would fail so late in an interview imo would be either we found someone better or the applicant didn't acknowledge that he didn't know or wasn't familiar with what we asked.

t-3 4y ago

It's normal to doubt yourself. Confidence in your skills is hard to gain, sometimes you just have to go ahead and try. Just like asking someone out, the worst they can do is say "no".

bredren 4y ago

It’s a numbers game. Even if you pass every technical portion with flying colors you could catch someone on the panel having a bad week that torpedo your opportunity for no reason at all. Just keep applying, and realize you may have gotten the job at that one you made stage 5/6 and found out the team was in fact toxic. Know your worth. They should be excited about you and your unique qualities the entire time and selling you on joining. If it doesn’t feel that way or you see or hear any red flags, pass on continuing the interview process. Doing this will help build your confidence and save you a lot of time. Being able to walk away is material to maintaining a high bar for what you expect from people you will be giving portions of your life to.

jameshush 4y ago
I was going to write something similar. It's a numbers game. Another way I look at it to make myself feel better is to think "I need 10 bad interviews before I find the good job". Then you don't focus on doing "well" or doing "bad", you just focus on going through the numbers. Just did interviews at two different companies about a month ago, first one bombarded me with OOP trivia questions for a front end React/JavaScript role. Another company the hiring manager burst out after 15 minutes of talking telling me I'd be perfect for the job and had me skip a step in the process. Don't second guess. Don't think too much. Just go through the process 10-20 times and you'll walk out the other end in a better place then you are now :-)
- bredren 4y ago
  I would add that it can be very emotionally challenging to put yourself through this many times. If you do interview runs with 20 different companies you are very likely to be lied about the process, their interest in you, or neglect to share important context about the open role. You will be lowballed multiple times. It can be straight up awful and then only way to be able to compare those with an actual good opportunity is the hard way: giving them your all each time until you learn how to decline to move forward. There is a reason people don’t switch jobs. It’s hard. Expect that and parallelize the process do not apply to companies one at a time.

rapjr9 4y ago

Remember that you are evaluating the company you are applying for a job at as well as them vetting you. Did you talk to the people you would be working with and have a bunch of questions ready to ask them? Part of the evaluation of your fitness for a job should be HR asking the people you'd be working with if they'd get along with you and what their impression was. Making a good impression with those people can mean more than passing some artificial test. Also, if you provided a resume then they should know what you are good at. If they gave you a test that was outside those boundaries they are probably testing your adaptability. So just do your best in those circumstances. Aside from trying to learn every aspect of programming (which used to be possible, but no longer is) all you can do to prepare yourself is to be open minded and ready to try new things. If you feel you messed up in some particular test, discuss that with them and explain why. If they are reasonable people they will likely give you another chance if that test was important to them. It's no longer the case that companies have all the power in this relationship, there is a shortage of potential employees so failing one test out of many is not necessarily a problem as long as you show overall capability. Assemble a portfolio of code examples, diagrams of projects you've worked on (ask for an NDA to discuss them if they are proprietary), graphic screen captures, etc. as evidence to support your abilities and make your case. Having those materials gives you something to talk about also. If they are so focused on that one test that they won't hire you, then maybe you're not a good fit for the company or they for you. It's not a defeat, it was a mutual evaluation, and didn't work out. Move on to the next interview. On the other hand, if you inflated your resume and got caught on that (which happens pretty often, I've seen people with a little web building experience try to apply for scientific research positions that require really tough skills, though I'm not implying that was the case here, I just don't know) then stop lying and your success rate is likely to go up.

adecentcoder 4y ago
Great points, thank you. I don't inflate my resume, as I've interviewed a fair few people who've done that and have seen where it gets them. Unfortunately due to working in defense, I cant tell future employers the software I've worked on beyond technology stack and very vague implementation.

hackerfromthefu 4y ago

Sorry to be that guy, but how does one go from 2 years at graduate level to being a senior? I would respectfully say that it takes more years than that in every case even the best cases, short of completely exceptional. I think the interview feedback you mentioned in your comment, not the original post, is further evidence of that about lacking 'deep' knowledge in an aspect of programming - this kind of thing takes time working on real challenges to accumulate, and for people who have spent 5-10-20 years accumulating hard won experience, the bar to consider someone a senior may be a bit higher than 2 years. Of course this won't preclude you getting a great job, but it might be realistic to set your expectations in line with what others may consider also.