4 ms·

The Turner Diaries is, I think, a poor choice of litmus test for this. It was never picked up by a major publisher, and was basically always self-published as f

The Turner Diaries is, I think, a poor choice of litmus test for this. It was never picked up by a major publisher, and was basically always self-published as far as I know. Wikipedia gives an estimate of 200k-500k copies sold, total, since 1978: that’s not a lot! Libraries do have to make curatorial choices about what to stock, both physically and digitally. So it’s not surprising a lot of libraries don’t stock a book that was never widely published or sold many copies, regardless of political connotations. And as controversial books go, I don’t think the Turner Diaries is one of the ones that necessarily merits wider availability for “historical interest”. I’ve never read it, maybe you have, but from I understand it’s not even a particularly interesting book it itself, only for it’s connection to some right-wing terrorists like McVeigh. The fact it never sold much sort of indicates not many people want to read it, a good reason not to carry it! And for ebooks in particular, it’s worth remembering most libraries (including Brooklyn) outsource their digital catalog to a third party provider. So their curatorial choices are potentially limited by that as well. Again, self published book never widely published or sold: not surprising to me that the major ebook providers for libraries might not have it. As a litmus test against your litmus test, it’s worth noting that the BK library does carry other controversial books like Mein Kampf, physically and digitally. All of this to say that while politics is always going to influence curatorial choices of “merit”, I think suggesting that the Brooklyn library “banned” The Turner Diaries merely due to its absence from the catalog is a bit of a stretched conclusion.

popcube 4y ago
I almost was convinced by this point, but I guess we can find Mein Kampf in library
ALittleLight 4y ago
It would be better to have a suite of controversial books and check those - I agree. That wouldn't really be a "litmus test" though - that would be more of a "test suite" which is a bit more effort than I care to invest in the claims of random groups that they oppose book banning. A litmus test, by definition, has a singular pass/fail check. Regarding the popularity of The Turner Diaries - I believe I already addressed this. It has similar search volume, per Google Trends, as one of the example books from the article - "The Black Flamingo" - despite being published ~50 years earlier. So, I don't think popularity is a determining factor in what books the BPL is making available. Furthermore, effectively banned books, by definition, cannot be popular. If they were popular then the bans on them would not be effective. I feel that I've let my desire to engage in "point by point" internet-style arguments derail me though. Why the BPL does not have The Turner Diaries is beside my point - maybe they don't like it ideologically, maybe it's just not popular enough, maybe they've never heard of it - who knows. Instead, the point I want to be making is more like - "If you think book banning is bad, would you want to make this book that advocates for genociding non-white people available to kids?" Because you should test your principles at the limits and not on appealing special cases. A lefty 2SLQBTGIA+ activist may think and say that "Book banning is bad" when they look at a list of 1,500 books about gay sexuality being banned - but that doesn't mean they are actually against book banning, they might just be against things they like being banned. If you want to know if that lefty person is against book banning, find a book that they would hate and ask them how they feel about that. Similarly, if this article were published by a neo-Nazi institute of religious fundamentalism, I wouldn't be asking them "How about the Turner Diaries?" They would absolutely host that book and complain about it being banned. I'd ask them "How about the 1619 Project?" As I wrote in my original comment, I am actually for book banning. I think some books are inappropriate for young people and those books should be banned from contexts where young people are likely to encounter them. When someone comes along and says "I'm against book banning!" I feel the need to challenge that because I think book banning is fine and good.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  > Similarly, if this article were published by a neo-Nazi institute of religious fundamentalism, I wouldn't be asking them "How about the Turner Diaries?" They would absolutely host that book and complain about it being banned. I'd ask them "How about the 1619 Project?" A complication that the 1619 Project brings up is that there are different actions which might reasonably fall under the heading of "banning". For example, repeated problems corroborating particular narratives in Elie Wiesel's Night led that book to be stocked in bookstores, but shelved under "fiction". Until someone started raising complaints in the media, at which point there was just as little corroboration but stores started shelving the book under "nonfiction" anyway.
  - Tao331 4y ago
    > Elie Wiesel's Night I read that during my junior year in high school. It was the last straw that launched me into a depressive episode that wrecked my grades for the year that mattered most on college applications and I barely missed having to repeat the year. It's probably not the fault of the book that it was dangerous to me, and if not Night, something else probably would have done it. I don't think censorship is a solution, but there is definitely room for educators to be aware of the psychological safety issues presented by traumatic material.
    - m1gu3l 4y ago
      I remember reading the first chapter and just writing the shortest possible essay i could based on that chapter reading and some janky synopsis I found online. Just couldn’t read that one at 16. I did read Man’s search for meaning (Viktor Frankl) in my late twenties and enjoyed it so maybe I should go back and give night another try now that I feel less depressed.

popcube 4y ago

I almost was convinced by this point, but I guess we can find Mein Kampf in library

ALittleLight 4y ago

It would be better to have a suite of controversial books and check those - I agree. That wouldn't really be a "litmus test" though - that would be more of a "test suite" which is a bit more effort than I care to invest in the claims of random groups that they oppose book banning. A litmus test, by definition, has a singular pass/fail check. Regarding the popularity of The Turner Diaries - I believe I already addressed this. It has similar search volume, per Google Trends, as one of the example books from the article - "The Black Flamingo" - despite being published ~50 years earlier. So, I don't think popularity is a determining factor in what books the BPL is making available. Furthermore, effectively banned books, by definition, cannot be popular. If they were popular then the bans on them would not be effective. I feel that I've let my desire to engage in "point by point" internet-style arguments derail me though. Why the BPL does not have The Turner Diaries is beside my point - maybe they don't like it ideologically, maybe it's just not popular enough, maybe they've never heard of it - who knows. Instead, the point I want to be making is more like - "If you think book banning is bad, would you want to make this book that advocates for genociding non-white people available to kids?" Because you should test your principles at the limits and not on appealing special cases. A lefty 2SLQBTGIA+ activist may think and say that "Book banning is bad" when they look at a list of 1,500 books about gay sexuality being banned - but that doesn't mean they are actually against book banning, they might just be against things they like being banned. If you want to know if that lefty person is against book banning, find a book that they would hate and ask them how they feel about that. Similarly, if this article were published by a neo-Nazi institute of religious fundamentalism, I wouldn't be asking them "How about the Turner Diaries?" They would absolutely host that book and complain about it being banned. I'd ask them "How about the 1619 Project?" As I wrote in my original comment, I am actually for book banning. I think some books are inappropriate for young people and those books should be banned from contexts where young people are likely to encounter them. When someone comes along and says "I'm against book banning!" I feel the need to challenge that because I think book banning is fine and good.

thaumasiotes 4y ago
> Similarly, if this article were published by a neo-Nazi institute of religious fundamentalism, I wouldn't be asking them "How about the Turner Diaries?" They would absolutely host that book and complain about it being banned. I'd ask them "How about the 1619 Project?" A complication that the 1619 Project brings up is that there are different actions which might reasonably fall under the heading of "banning". For example, repeated problems corroborating particular narratives in Elie Wiesel's Night led that book to be stocked in bookstores, but shelved under "fiction". Until someone started raising complaints in the media, at which point there was just as little corroboration but stores started shelving the book under "nonfiction" anyway.
- Tao331 4y ago
  > Elie Wiesel's Night I read that during my junior year in high school. It was the last straw that launched me into a depressive episode that wrecked my grades for the year that mattered most on college applications and I barely missed having to repeat the year. It's probably not the fault of the book that it was dangerous to me, and if not Night, something else probably would have done it. I don't think censorship is a solution, but there is definitely room for educators to be aware of the psychological safety issues presented by traumatic material.
  - m1gu3l 4y ago
    I remember reading the first chapter and just writing the shortest possible essay i could based on that chapter reading and some janky synopsis I found online. Just couldn’t read that one at 16. I did read Man’s search for meaning (Viktor Frankl) in my late twenties and enjoyed it so maybe I should go back and give night another try now that I feel less depressed.