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This is a bad take, but unsurprising when most Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things. If it's a cultural dead end it

This is a bad take, but unsurprising when most Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things. If it's a cultural dead end it's because of the culture not the idea. That aside, John Cage was having these ideas when they weren't as obvious as they are today and we have the benefit of hindsight. Dismissing that is also a pretty ignorant mistake.

dahart 4y ago
Would you mind elaborating on what you mean? Why is that a bad take? What is culturally relevant about this? I’m not saying it isn’t, but I don’t know what it is, and tearing down others doesn’t help me. John Cage didn’t intend this piece to last 639 years, right? What ideas of his are you referring to? This long running organ piece was conceived by someone in Germany and is intended to highlight the history of Halberstadt, right? The question @TheOtherHobbes is raising seems relevant: how does this performance contribute to musical culture, or even to Cage’s work? It can’t be enjoyed as music, it’s more of a logistical piece intended to create a mythology. In that sense, this performance is, in a way, very much lauding a sort of skill over most other things about the music - the skill of pure perseverance. Like other conceptual art, it’s the story of this work that is interesting, but not really the work itself. You seem to suggest otherwise, would you mind coloring that in for me, so I can appreciate it more?
- Bud 4y ago
  The best guide is probably Cage's book, "Silence". Contains a lot of Cage's interaction with Zen, random change procedures, silence, form and time in music, and all the ideas that are contained within his various experiments. It would be hard to explain in an easy sentence or two on here. If I thought I could do it, I'd try. It might end up looking like a Zen koan. :)
  - dahart 4y ago
    That ignores the fact that this Halberstadt project wasn’t designed by Cage, and the timing is for reasons specific to Halberstadt. Do you feel like Cage’s ideas call for a piece to last hundreds of years? It seems like all the ideas you just mentioned are thrown out the window when a single note lasts for years at a time, and zero people are present to witness the full performance, or even the full playing of a single note. This isn’t being done for music reasons, it’s being done explicitly for spectacle reasons, as described by the project page.
    - Bud 4y ago
      I think Cage might ask why you are so very certain why a "spectacle" can't be art, too. Especially one like this.
      - dahart 4y ago
        Oh that’s totally fair. A spectacle absolutely can be art. This is a bit of a different goal post than above though, isn’t it? And while we can speculate that Cage might say this, it’s (speculating) also possible that he wouldn’t approve of his music being used as a town attraction, or that he wouldn’t approve of music that can’t physically be experienced by humans, right? Either way, isn’t it equally fair to question whether a spectacle is musically and culturally relevant, like @TheOtherHobbes did?
- enduser384729 4y ago
  I don't believe you are arguing in good faith so I will not be coloring anything in for you.
  - dahart 4y ago
    You’re wrong, I’m genuinely curious, and like many here fascinated by experimental and generative arts. You may be lashing out at the very people most likely to agree with your point of view. Sorry to hear that you’re unable to engage.
PolygonSheep 4y ago
> most Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things. We must be in different Western cultures because I definitely don't see a lot of skill and virtuosity in most popular music.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > We must be in different Western cultures because I definitely don't see a lot of skill and virtuosity in most popular music. I think it depends on the lens you use. If you're looking through a "Tom Scholz" lens, that kind of skill and instrumental virtuosity may not exist today (although artists like St. Vincent are an argument that they do). But tech has completely changed music making, production, and distribution since that time, so today's Toms are people like Finneas O'Connell, and making music today is more akin to software design and engineering.
rufus_foreman 4y ago
>> Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things It was my understanding that everyone had heard.
rnd0 4y ago
>This is a bad take, but unsurprising when most Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things Why is that a bad thing?
- enduser384729 4y ago
  If you think music and art are entirely about skill that's fine, but I personally am not interested in hearing anything further about your opinions in that case.
  - DonBarredora 4y ago
    Wow, tone it down with the pretentiousness.
    - enduser384729 4y ago
  - rnd0 4y ago
    > but I personally am not interested in hearing anything further about your opinions in that case. Fuck me, you say? No, fuck YOU. Feel free to mute me (edit: assuming HN has that feature) if you're unwilling to engage in an exchange of opinions and perspectives like a reasonable adult.
    - enduser384729 4y ago

dahart 4y ago

Would you mind elaborating on what you mean? Why is that a bad take? What is culturally relevant about this? I’m not saying it isn’t, but I don’t know what it is, and tearing down others doesn’t help me. John Cage didn’t intend this piece to last 639 years, right? What ideas of his are you referring to? This long running organ piece was conceived by someone in Germany and is intended to highlight the history of Halberstadt, right? The question @TheOtherHobbes is raising seems relevant: how does this performance contribute to musical culture, or even to Cage’s work? It can’t be enjoyed as music, it’s more of a logistical piece intended to create a mythology. In that sense, this performance is, in a way, very much lauding a sort of skill over most other things about the music - the skill of pure perseverance. Like other conceptual art, it’s the story of this work that is interesting, but not really the work itself. You seem to suggest otherwise, would you mind coloring that in for me, so I can appreciate it more?

Bud 4y ago
The best guide is probably Cage's book, "Silence". Contains a lot of Cage's interaction with Zen, random change procedures, silence, form and time in music, and all the ideas that are contained within his various experiments. It would be hard to explain in an easy sentence or two on here. If I thought I could do it, I'd try. It might end up looking like a Zen koan. :)
- dahart 4y ago
  That ignores the fact that this Halberstadt project wasn’t designed by Cage, and the timing is for reasons specific to Halberstadt. Do you feel like Cage’s ideas call for a piece to last hundreds of years? It seems like all the ideas you just mentioned are thrown out the window when a single note lasts for years at a time, and zero people are present to witness the full performance, or even the full playing of a single note. This isn’t being done for music reasons, it’s being done explicitly for spectacle reasons, as described by the project page.
  - Bud 4y ago
    I think Cage might ask why you are so very certain why a "spectacle" can't be art, too. Especially one like this.
    - dahart 4y ago
      Oh that’s totally fair. A spectacle absolutely can be art. This is a bit of a different goal post than above though, isn’t it? And while we can speculate that Cage might say this, it’s (speculating) also possible that he wouldn’t approve of his music being used as a town attraction, or that he wouldn’t approve of music that can’t physically be experienced by humans, right? Either way, isn’t it equally fair to question whether a spectacle is musically and culturally relevant, like @TheOtherHobbes did?
enduser384729 4y ago
I don't believe you are arguing in good faith so I will not be coloring anything in for you.
- dahart 4y ago
  You’re wrong, I’m genuinely curious, and like many here fascinated by experimental and generative arts. You may be lashing out at the very people most likely to agree with your point of view. Sorry to hear that you’re unable to engage.

PolygonSheep 4y ago

> most Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things. We must be in different Western cultures because I definitely don't see a lot of skill and virtuosity in most popular music.

CharlesW 4y ago
> We must be in different Western cultures because I definitely don't see a lot of skill and virtuosity in most popular music. I think it depends on the lens you use. If you're looking through a "Tom Scholz" lens, that kind of skill and instrumental virtuosity may not exist today (although artists like St. Vincent are an argument that they do). But tech has completely changed music making, production, and distribution since that time, so today's Toms are people like Finneas O'Connell, and making music today is more akin to software design and engineering.

rufus_foreman 4y ago

>> Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things It was my understanding that everyone had heard.

rnd0 4y ago

>This is a bad take, but unsurprising when most Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things Why is that a bad thing?

enduser384729 4y ago
If you think music and art are entirely about skill that's fine, but I personally am not interested in hearing anything further about your opinions in that case.
- DonBarredora 4y ago
  Wow, tone it down with the pretentiousness.
  - enduser384729 4y ago
- rnd0 4y ago
  > but I personally am not interested in hearing anything further about your opinions in that case. Fuck me, you say? No, fuck YOU. Feel free to mute me (edit: assuming HN has that feature) if you're unwilling to engage in an exchange of opinions and perspectives like a reasonable adult.
  - enduser384729 4y ago