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> You can either work for capitalists or die from various causes(starvation, lac of medical help, etc) This is a straw man of capitalism. The idea that in capi

> You can either work for capitalists or die from various causes(starvation, lac of medical help, etc) This is a straw man of capitalism. The idea that in capitalist countries citizens would be left to die and starve requires a great exercise of imagination. > it was replaced by socialism/capitalism hybrid. I agree with most of your comment actually. My point is there hasn't existed a free society without capitalism. > So does capitalism, in the end pure capitalism failed (but not before taking lives of many people, child labour, unsafe work conditions, no health care, starvation and more) What country society do you have in mind? I'm genuinely curious.

sangnoir 4y ago
> The idea that in capitalist countries citizens would be left to die and starve requires a great exercise of imagination How about dying from rare cancers due for living near superfund sites, or from opioid-related ODs?
- walkhour 4y ago
  Opiod-related ODs have increased as the market has become more regulated and since the war against poverty started. I don't see evidence of these being caused by capitalism, if anything I see a correlation with socialism.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    Oh yeah, I forgot the Sacklers and their marketing department were dyed in the wool commies, committed to handing over the means of production to the proletariat.
sobkas 4y ago
>This is a straw man of capitalism. The idea that in capitalist countries citizens would be left to die and starve requires a great exercise of imagination. Just don't search how many people die due to lack of healthcare or how many people freeze to death(mostly homeless, but also people who can't afford to properly heat their homes), how many people were executed because they didn't have money for a good lawyer. >I agree with most of your comment actually. My point is there hasn't existed a free society without capitalism. On the other hand, capitalism can work perfectly well without free society. There is another problem with capitalism and democracy, capitalists compete with workers(non capitalists) for access to elected(or not) officials. They use power(money,connections, etc) to influence officials, which erodes democracy, in some cases, to the point where democracy is in name only. Normal people have a little influence on policies, while capitalists reap benefits of captured democracy. >What country society do you have in mind? I'm genuinely curious. I really don't know, but I believe that world without homeless people, starving children, sick without access to medicine is possible. I hope that socialism/capitalism hybrid(with democracy having control over capitalism, not other way around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany) will help in making it possible, but there are no guarantees it will. But I know that I don't really want to LARP Mad Max in real life.
- walkhour 4y ago
  > Just don't search how many people die due to lack of healthcare or how many people freeze to death(mostly homeless ... Do you have proof that there would be less of these without capitalism. If anything the homeless population has increased in the USA as the market has become more regulated, so I don't see the proof that more capitalism produces more homelessness. > >What country society do you have in mind? I'm genuinely curious. > I really don't know I think you should inform yourself a little bit more before claiming something and then coming empty handed when specific examples are asked. The capitalism you're thinking of exists mostly in your imagination if you can't provide examples.
  - sobkas 4y ago
    >Do you have proof that there would be less of these without capitalism. If anything the homeless population has increased in the USA as the market has become more regulated, so I don't see the proof that more capitalism produces more homelessness. In socialist countries (eg European ones, I have less familiarity with others) number of homeless people is lower, number of people without healthcare is also lower. I'm an example, when I was unemployed, living with my family, government paid for my healthcare. Stuff even people with private insurance might not have (in US). Also rises in number of homeless people correlated with decline in mental health services. Greyhound therapy? >I think you should inform yourself a little bit more before claiming something and then coming empty handed when specific examples are asked. The capitalism you're thinking of exists mostly in your imagination if you can't provide examples. First of, when talking about future, you just don't know what consequences our actions will have. As I said, I would like to see what socialism/capitalism hybrid(democracy controling capitalism, including German example, wiki link). That includes Nordic social democracies or European ones in general. So I mentioned example after saying that I don't know. You just ignored it, with a bonus of "forgetting" to copy-paste my full argument.

sangnoir 4y ago

> The idea that in capitalist countries citizens would be left to die and starve requires a great exercise of imagination How about dying from rare cancers due for living near superfund sites, or from opioid-related ODs?

walkhour 4y ago
Opiod-related ODs have increased as the market has become more regulated and since the war against poverty started. I don't see evidence of these being caused by capitalism, if anything I see a correlation with socialism.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  Oh yeah, I forgot the Sacklers and their marketing department were dyed in the wool commies, committed to handing over the means of production to the proletariat.

sobkas 4y ago

>This is a straw man of capitalism. The idea that in capitalist countries citizens would be left to die and starve requires a great exercise of imagination. Just don't search how many people die due to lack of healthcare or how many people freeze to death(mostly homeless, but also people who can't afford to properly heat their homes), how many people were executed because they didn't have money for a good lawyer. >I agree with most of your comment actually. My point is there hasn't existed a free society without capitalism. On the other hand, capitalism can work perfectly well without free society. There is another problem with capitalism and democracy, capitalists compete with workers(non capitalists) for access to elected(or not) officials. They use power(money,connections, etc) to influence officials, which erodes democracy, in some cases, to the point where democracy is in name only. Normal people have a little influence on policies, while capitalists reap benefits of captured democracy. >What country society do you have in mind? I'm genuinely curious. I really don't know, but I believe that world without homeless people, starving children, sick without access to medicine is possible. I hope that socialism/capitalism hybrid(with democracy having control over capitalism, not other way around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany) will help in making it possible, but there are no guarantees it will. But I know that I don't really want to LARP Mad Max in real life.

walkhour 4y ago
> Just don't search how many people die due to lack of healthcare or how many people freeze to death(mostly homeless ... Do you have proof that there would be less of these without capitalism. If anything the homeless population has increased in the USA as the market has become more regulated, so I don't see the proof that more capitalism produces more homelessness. > >What country society do you have in mind? I'm genuinely curious. > I really don't know I think you should inform yourself a little bit more before claiming something and then coming empty handed when specific examples are asked. The capitalism you're thinking of exists mostly in your imagination if you can't provide examples.
- sobkas 4y ago
  >Do you have proof that there would be less of these without capitalism. If anything the homeless population has increased in the USA as the market has become more regulated, so I don't see the proof that more capitalism produces more homelessness. In socialist countries (eg European ones, I have less familiarity with others) number of homeless people is lower, number of people without healthcare is also lower. I'm an example, when I was unemployed, living with my family, government paid for my healthcare. Stuff even people with private insurance might not have (in US). Also rises in number of homeless people correlated with decline in mental health services. Greyhound therapy? >I think you should inform yourself a little bit more before claiming something and then coming empty handed when specific examples are asked. The capitalism you're thinking of exists mostly in your imagination if you can't provide examples. First of, when talking about future, you just don't know what consequences our actions will have. As I said, I would like to see what socialism/capitalism hybrid(democracy controling capitalism, including German example, wiki link). That includes Nordic social democracies or European ones in general. So I mentioned example after saying that I don't know. You just ignored it, with a bonus of "forgetting" to copy-paste my full argument.