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Yes, there really needs to be some form of certification for lithium-ion (and other...) batteries used in personal transportation devices. The recipe is really

by mdb31 4y ago

Yes, there really needs to be some form of certification for lithium-ion (and other...) batteries used in personal transportation devices. The recipe is really simple: insufficient structural integrity of the entire product leading to flexing the battery pack, leading to a short-circuit in one or more cells, leading to a violent-and-very-smokey fire. The previous scare was with "hoverboards", where kids burnt down their parents' houses after bumping into something. And now it's apparently e-scooters, which are a bit more difficult to dismiss as "just a fad toy"... In any case: safety markings are not just rent-seeking behavior. In some cases, certification (and subsequent enforcement of the presence of authentic markings) are literal life-savers.

reportingsjr 4y ago
There has been certification for energy dense batteries for decades. Clearly nobody looks at these certifications and just buys whatever is cheap.
- ericd 4y ago
  Seems like we should mandate the slapping of big “not certified” stickers on any battery of sufficient danger that’s not certified. And maybe subsidize and streamline testing to make sure it’s not too stifling for small startup entrants to the industry. Maybe wishful thinking, looking at our history with that kind of thing.
sokoloff 4y ago
> safety markings are not just rent-seeking behavior This makes me wonder if society should subsidize safety and compliance testing to reduce the incentive to skip it.
- spicybright 4y ago
  Or we can require companies to do compliance testing under external supervision if they want to sell these products to people.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    You can and you’ll thereby have created an environment with significant incentives to cheat, avoid testing, fake certification labels, or similar. If you’re able to exhaustively inspect every corner of every supply chain, that could work; I suspect that’s hard to make happen.
    - darkerside 4y ago
      VW is the exception to the role in the auto industry. I don't see why it couldn't work. It's just a question of how much we care.
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        Is VW an exception? Ford Pinto fuel tanks, GM ignition switches, Toyota accelerator pedal assemblies, and I’ve made at least three trips (might have been four) to dealers for Takata airbag problems.
        darkerside 4y ago
        Even with these problems, people accept the dangers of cars every day. I'm sure most accidents are caused not by cars but by people, and the issues you point out are notable for their rarity. That's why they make big news. Similar to how flying feels less safe than it is because a plane crash makes the news. My point is, it can work, and the auto industry is a trivial example.
nabilhat 4y ago
Primarily we need investment in a battery chemistry that doesn't have 'self-sustaining exothermic runaway' as a normal failure mode when overcharged, or charged too fast, or discharged too fast, or discharged to too low a voltage in a pack without a proper BMS, or charged after being discharged to too low a voltage, or physically damaged, or due to random manufacturing defects. It's not just hoverboards and escooters, it's those exploding laptop batteries years ago, exploding samsung phones, and now in nearly all EV's. Recently I've been seeing more LiCo packs powering wheelchairs. The RC community are more often selecting to use LiFePO4 batteries in their controllers, regardless of what's in the remote device. Boat builders prefer LiFePO4 for safety reasons. Lithium iron phosphate batteries don't have an exothermic failure mode other than standard flammability of the materials. LiFePO4 or similar should be a standard for any large-capacity battery powered device a person holds, wears, or occupies. My main concern now is what's going to happen as these batteries age. Ebikes and escooters in general are going to earn a reputation that should be earned by a specific battery chemistry. EV's will too as more of them age into the backyard mechanic resale price range. People are going to get hurt, and leaders who don't know better will hamstring lithium batteries in general.
- 05 4y ago
  > The RC community are more often selecting to use LiFePO4 batteries in their controllers, regardless of what's in the remote device. The majority of transmitters uses lipo/li-ion. You already have a lipo in your phone, why not in the TX? Not many people sleep while their radios are charging on their nightstand.. Boats are the only type of rc craft where using LiFePO4s is feasible, because they are less weight sensitive. Try selling switching to LiFePO4 to quadcopter pilots, for example..

by mdb31 4y ago

reportingsjr 4y ago

There has been certification for energy dense batteries for decades. Clearly nobody looks at these certifications and just buys whatever is cheap.

ericd 4y ago
Seems like we should mandate the slapping of big “not certified” stickers on any battery of sufficient danger that’s not certified. And maybe subsidize and streamline testing to make sure it’s not too stifling for small startup entrants to the industry. Maybe wishful thinking, looking at our history with that kind of thing.

sokoloff 4y ago

> safety markings are not just rent-seeking behavior This makes me wonder if society should subsidize safety and compliance testing to reduce the incentive to skip it.

spicybright 4y ago
Or we can require companies to do compliance testing under external supervision if they want to sell these products to people.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  You can and you’ll thereby have created an environment with significant incentives to cheat, avoid testing, fake certification labels, or similar. If you’re able to exhaustively inspect every corner of every supply chain, that could work; I suspect that’s hard to make happen.
  - darkerside 4y ago
    VW is the exception to the role in the auto industry. I don't see why it couldn't work. It's just a question of how much we care.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Is VW an exception? Ford Pinto fuel tanks, GM ignition switches, Toyota accelerator pedal assemblies, and I’ve made at least three trips (might have been four) to dealers for Takata airbag problems.
      - darkerside 4y ago
        Even with these problems, people accept the dangers of cars every day. I'm sure most accidents are caused not by cars but by people, and the issues you point out are notable for their rarity. That's why they make big news. Similar to how flying feels less safe than it is because a plane crash makes the news. My point is, it can work, and the auto industry is a trivial example.

nabilhat 4y ago

Primarily we need investment in a battery chemistry that doesn't have 'self-sustaining exothermic runaway' as a normal failure mode when overcharged, or charged too fast, or discharged too fast, or discharged to too low a voltage in a pack without a proper BMS, or charged after being discharged to too low a voltage, or physically damaged, or due to random manufacturing defects. It's not just hoverboards and escooters, it's those exploding laptop batteries years ago, exploding samsung phones, and now in nearly all EV's. Recently I've been seeing more LiCo packs powering wheelchairs. The RC community are more often selecting to use LiFePO4 batteries in their controllers, regardless of what's in the remote device. Boat builders prefer LiFePO4 for safety reasons. Lithium iron phosphate batteries don't have an exothermic failure mode other than standard flammability of the materials. LiFePO4 or similar should be a standard for any large-capacity battery powered device a person holds, wears, or occupies. My main concern now is what's going to happen as these batteries age. Ebikes and escooters in general are going to earn a reputation that should be earned by a specific battery chemistry. EV's will too as more of them age into the backyard mechanic resale price range. People are going to get hurt, and leaders who don't know better will hamstring lithium batteries in general.

05 4y ago
> The RC community are more often selecting to use LiFePO4 batteries in their controllers, regardless of what's in the remote device. The majority of transmitters uses lipo/li-ion. You already have a lipo in your phone, why not in the TX? Not many people sleep while their radios are charging on their nightstand.. Boats are the only type of rc craft where using LiFePO4s is feasible, because they are less weight sensitive. Try selling switching to LiFePO4 to quadcopter pilots, for example..