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> I'd say that BTC + ETC use up about 1% of world electricity Where did you get that figure? If you read the researched article I linked, the estimate is aroun

> I'd say that BTC + ETC use up about 1% of world electricity Where did you get that figure? If you read the researched article I linked, the estimate is around 0.1%. > would go up dramatically if BTC went up dramatically Not as dramatically as you think: if BTC goes up to 1 million per coin it will still be using less than 1% of global energy consumption (again relying on the article I previously cited as my source). 1% is no longer a rounding error that we can just dismiss, but a price of 1 million per coin would imply that Bitcoin-based financial systems have become incredibly valuable and are displacing other financial systems.

invalidname 5y ago
Despite all the hype. Very few people use Crypto. It doesn't matter if it's "just" 0.1% what matters is how much do all the banking and credit card systems in the world consume by comparison. I would bet it's less than that. So it's not tenable as a currency. It's also not very valuable as a commodity since it fluctuates too much and has no intrinsic value. It has no value to "disconnect from the banks/government" since you need to convert it to "real currency" for usage. There's the claim that green is possible with Crypto but I don't see how. Without turning it into a centralized system. The wastefulness is the system designed to discourage bad actors from taking over. Without it, what will stop the hacks? (not that it helps with all the robberies anyway).
- gregwebs 5y ago
  > So it's not tenable as a currency. Did you read the article that I linked to? It's helpful also to read this one about Bitcoin: https://www.lynalden.com/gold-and-bitcoin/ https://www.lynalden.com/gold-and-bitcoin/ Bitcoin's usage is not as currency, but as money (read this article about what money is: https://www.lynalden.com/what-is-money/ https://www.lynalden.com/what-is-money/. So Bitcoin is useful as a store of value, rather than a currency. The ability to transact like a currency is being built in layers on top of it (Lightning Network, etc), somewhat similar to how currencies used to be backed by gold.
- tasuki 5y ago
  > what matters is how much do all the banking and credit card systems in the world consume by comparison. I would bet it's less than that. Thing is, with bitcoin the energy consumption is easily quantifiable and it's a single number. The banking system also uses a lot of energy to heat/cool the employees, builds lots of office buildings, and does many things which could be considered wasteful. It really is a little tricky to compare. The banking system employs a lot of people. Depending on your point of view, this can be a bad thing (they could be doing something more productive instead!) or a good thing (the people are getting jobs, employment is good!).
  - FabHK 5y ago
    This is a good point, and the banking system is certainly bloated - just before the GFC more than a third of US GDP went to the financial sector, WTF. However, the traditional banking system also performs way more functions than crypto and DeFi, and I very much doubt that DeFi can provide them. Lastly, disrupting banking with good old Fintech would be great, as it is vastly more efficient than blockchain.
FabHK 5y ago
I said electricity, not energy. Energy use encompasses industry, transport (oil), heating, and electricity. As for the rise, as I said, I think money spent on energy and electro waste is largely proportional to BTC price, since unscrupulous miners will be incentivised to come in and mine if mining profits become larger due to a higher price (since they are unconcerned about the externalities. Private gain, socialised costs).
- gregwebs 5y ago
  Do you have a source for the electricity usage? 26% of US energy usage is for transportation. For your math to work, 90% of energy usage would have to be non-electrical. If you read the article I linked about Bitcoin, it explains how Bitcoin mining stops producing coins over time and instead miners have to make their money in transaction fees- this is a very different model for mining incentive. Again, it would be great to see some sources or math contradicting the researched article that I linked to.
  - FabHK 5y ago
    Sorry, no complete source, I’ve calculated it myself. The discrepancy arises from several issues: 1. The article you quote is from last year. Current estimates for BTC are around 200 TWh/a, not 140 as in the article. 2. The article looks at BTC only. My statement was BTC + ETH. 3. Energy vs electricity 4. There is also the issue of energy production vs consumption (differences arise from energy used for the production of energy, as well as transport losses). 5. It is plausible that electricity is “just” 10% to 35% of energy usage, would need to look that up. With all that, I stand by my statement that crypto uses 1% or more of the world electricity consumption.

invalidname 5y ago

Despite all the hype. Very few people use Crypto. It doesn't matter if it's "just" 0.1% what matters is how much do all the banking and credit card systems in the world consume by comparison. I would bet it's less than that. So it's not tenable as a currency. It's also not very valuable as a commodity since it fluctuates too much and has no intrinsic value. It has no value to "disconnect from the banks/government" since you need to convert it to "real currency" for usage. There's the claim that green is possible with Crypto but I don't see how. Without turning it into a centralized system. The wastefulness is the system designed to discourage bad actors from taking over. Without it, what will stop the hacks? (not that it helps with all the robberies anyway).

gregwebs 5y ago
> So it's not tenable as a currency. Did you read the article that I linked to? It's helpful also to read this one about Bitcoin: https://www.lynalden.com/gold-and-bitcoin/ https://www.lynalden.com/gold-and-bitcoin/ Bitcoin's usage is not as currency, but as money (read this article about what money is: https://www.lynalden.com/what-is-money/ https://www.lynalden.com/what-is-money/. So Bitcoin is useful as a store of value, rather than a currency. The ability to transact like a currency is being built in layers on top of it (Lightning Network, etc), somewhat similar to how currencies used to be backed by gold.
tasuki 5y ago
> what matters is how much do all the banking and credit card systems in the world consume by comparison. I would bet it's less than that. Thing is, with bitcoin the energy consumption is easily quantifiable and it's a single number. The banking system also uses a lot of energy to heat/cool the employees, builds lots of office buildings, and does many things which could be considered wasteful. It really is a little tricky to compare. The banking system employs a lot of people. Depending on your point of view, this can be a bad thing (they could be doing something more productive instead!) or a good thing (the people are getting jobs, employment is good!).
- FabHK 5y ago
  This is a good point, and the banking system is certainly bloated - just before the GFC more than a third of US GDP went to the financial sector, WTF. However, the traditional banking system also performs way more functions than crypto and DeFi, and I very much doubt that DeFi can provide them. Lastly, disrupting banking with good old Fintech would be great, as it is vastly more efficient than blockchain.

FabHK 5y ago

I said electricity, not energy. Energy use encompasses industry, transport (oil), heating, and electricity. As for the rise, as I said, I think money spent on energy and electro waste is largely proportional to BTC price, since unscrupulous miners will be incentivised to come in and mine if mining profits become larger due to a higher price (since they are unconcerned about the externalities. Private gain, socialised costs).

gregwebs 5y ago
Do you have a source for the electricity usage? 26% of US energy usage is for transportation. For your math to work, 90% of energy usage would have to be non-electrical. If you read the article I linked about Bitcoin, it explains how Bitcoin mining stops producing coins over time and instead miners have to make their money in transaction fees- this is a very different model for mining incentive. Again, it would be great to see some sources or math contradicting the researched article that I linked to.
- FabHK 5y ago
  Sorry, no complete source, I’ve calculated it myself. The discrepancy arises from several issues: 1. The article you quote is from last year. Current estimates for BTC are around 200 TWh/a, not 140 as in the article. 2. The article looks at BTC only. My statement was BTC + ETH. 3. Energy vs electricity 4. There is also the issue of energy production vs consumption (differences arise from energy used for the production of energy, as well as transport losses). 5. It is plausible that electricity is “just” 10% to 35% of energy usage, would need to look that up. With all that, I stand by my statement that crypto uses 1% or more of the world electricity consumption.