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> I hate the indifferent. I believe that living means taking sides. Those who really live cannot help being a citizen and a partisan. Indifference and apathy ar

> I hate the indifferent. I believe that living means taking sides. Those who really live cannot help being a citizen and a partisan. Indifference and apathy are parasitism, perversion, not life. That is why I hate the indifferent. > The indifference is the deadweight of history. The indifference operates with great power on history. The indifference operates passively, but it operates. It is fate, that which cannot be counted on. It twists programs and ruins the best-conceived plans. It is the raw material that ruins intelligence. That what happens, the evil that weighs upon all, happens because the human mass abdicates to their will; allows laws to be promulgated that only the revolt could nullify, and leaves men that only a mutiny will be able to overthrow to achieve the power. - Antonio Gramsci

colordrops 5y ago
The choice isn't often so clear cut. In fact I'll take a side here and say that the idea pushed by this quote is actually one of the most poisonous aspects of American culture at the moment. You are either "red" or "blue" or wasting time with your apathy. No, that's utter BS.
- Ntrails 5y ago
  I would interpret that quote slightly differently. Not making a decision is, in itself, a decision with consequences. Indifference is a powerful choice with real consequences to society, just like delaying an important decision can take it out of your hands etc. The side doesn't have to be red or blue, but anything is better than "who cares"
  - notreallyserio 5y ago
    > Not making a decision is, in itself, a decision with consequences. And this is why so much energy is spent convincing you that your vote doesn't matter or that both sides are the same, etc.
    - colordrops 5y ago
      Who is trying to convince you of this?
      - notreallyserio 5y ago
        A particularly famous example are the South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone. I don't have a handy list of other people that have made the same or similar statements.
icelancer 5y ago
Not wanting to discuss politics on HN does not make one indifferent, unless you know everything each of us does in our real job and spare time.
- eevilspock 5y ago
  You may not be indifferent, but the vast majority of HN effectively is. I say effectively because they are very much in favor of a particular political and economic system, but because that political and economic system is the status quo and, if anything, is getting further entrenched, they can effectively not worry about it. It's not a coincidence that this same political and economic system has enabled the tech world to accumulate so much wealth and social power. It's not a coincidence that the HN readers are the upper caste within the tech world, not the assembly-line workers, the warehouse workers, the delivery workers upon, the restaurant workers, and the many other kinds of workers who work for a tech company or service tech workers, for minimum or close to minimum wage.
  - raarts 5y ago
    | You may not be indifferent, but the vast majority of HN effectively is. What I want to discuss and engage with on HN is usually very different (and way less political) compared to what I engage with in other social media. So you can't draw any conclusions about me based on my HN behavior alone.
dr_dshiv 5y ago
I think the convention is to use “” to give a general quote; > to quote a comment in thread. And, on the content, HN isn’t filled with indifferent people. But we need to have places for politics and places to avoid politics. Indifference is different from deference—deference to the context.
nonrandomstring 5y ago
This is a great Gramsci quote. As far as hacker politics goes, it applies well to the intellectual sloth of technological determinism, which Veblem and McLuhan criticised in different ways, and Postman called the most abject form of surrender. I assume that readers here do not fall into such ambivalence, since the very nature of a hacker is to believe in the ability to meaningfully create and change technology. I consider it part of our mission to help others overcome the shrugging, cargo-cult acceptance of whatever tech falls into our laps and take the active path to designing and using technology toward a better future for humans. Inescapably, a part of holding values must be stopping some people from using tech in disagreeable ways. And since people are guaranteed to disagree on matters, technology is a new arena of politics and not something that can exist separately from it.
- nonrandomstring 5y ago
  Always disappointing when people lack the comportment and courage to formulate a persuasive challenge. :(
jasfi 5y ago
When you ignore politics, you may one day realize that you shouldn't have when a serious political issue is right at your door and it's too late. This includes tech-related politics.
kortilla 5y ago
A loudmouth who has opinions about everything is useless. I’ll take someone who is indifferent about things they have no well reasoned opinion on.
giantg2 5y ago
"Those who really live cannot help being a citizen and a partisan. Indifference and apathy are parasitism, perversion, not life. That is why I hate the indifferent." It's sort of hinting at a false dichotomy here. You don't have to be partisan to be engaged. There are many nuanced positions and ideas. Perhaps the author lived in a different time or place that doesn't have two main parties acting the way they do today.
- etherael 5y ago
  Loathe to wade into a political fray on that subject but will just point out that the author was an adherent of the political ideology responsible for the most deaths in the last century. It's hard to believe that the world would not have been better off if a significant number of those ideological adherents were indifferent, even if just as a moderating influence.
  - watwut 5y ago
    Russia was country with super politically apathetic citizens for decades. That attitude was inherited from communism and led to now - heavily authoritarian stayed with no meaningful internal opposition. Indifferent people are not moderating influence. They easily end up enablers of whoever is the most aggressive one.
batch12 5y ago
These are the kinds of opinions people use to try and radicalize others. In the end, this only serves to reinforce an 'us vs them' perspective on anything someone loud enough signals as important. The texture of nuance is sanded down until there is only Right and Wrong. Now, whoever doesn't hold each of the same endorsed partisan beliefs is the Enemy.
- eevilspock 5y ago
  Gramsci is talking about indifference, not a particular political position. Are you suggesting arguing against indifference is "radical"? Aren't you in your characterization labeling someone the Enemy?
  - batch12 5y ago
    I am saying that the argument that a side must be selected is misused to apply to everything. This has devolved into a checklist of ideas that must be actively endorsed. > Aren't you in your characterization labeling someone the Enemy? Those who promote this ideology are enemies of us all. Edit: The discussion of politics is now the parroting of endorsed talking points. There is no unique or independent thought and it isn't interesting.

colordrops 5y ago

The choice isn't often so clear cut. In fact I'll take a side here and say that the idea pushed by this quote is actually one of the most poisonous aspects of American culture at the moment. You are either "red" or "blue" or wasting time with your apathy. No, that's utter BS.

Ntrails 5y ago
I would interpret that quote slightly differently. Not making a decision is, in itself, a decision with consequences. Indifference is a powerful choice with real consequences to society, just like delaying an important decision can take it out of your hands etc. The side doesn't have to be red or blue, but anything is better than "who cares"
- notreallyserio 5y ago
  > Not making a decision is, in itself, a decision with consequences. And this is why so much energy is spent convincing you that your vote doesn't matter or that both sides are the same, etc.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    Who is trying to convince you of this?
    - notreallyserio 5y ago
      A particularly famous example are the South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone. I don't have a handy list of other people that have made the same or similar statements.

icelancer 5y ago

Not wanting to discuss politics on HN does not make one indifferent, unless you know everything each of us does in our real job and spare time.

eevilspock 5y ago
You may not be indifferent, but the vast majority of HN effectively is. I say effectively because they are very much in favor of a particular political and economic system, but because that political and economic system is the status quo and, if anything, is getting further entrenched, they can effectively not worry about it. It's not a coincidence that this same political and economic system has enabled the tech world to accumulate so much wealth and social power. It's not a coincidence that the HN readers are the upper caste within the tech world, not the assembly-line workers, the warehouse workers, the delivery workers upon, the restaurant workers, and the many other kinds of workers who work for a tech company or service tech workers, for minimum or close to minimum wage.
- raarts 5y ago
  | You may not be indifferent, but the vast majority of HN effectively is. What I want to discuss and engage with on HN is usually very different (and way less political) compared to what I engage with in other social media. So you can't draw any conclusions about me based on my HN behavior alone.

dr_dshiv 5y ago

I think the convention is to use “” to give a general quote; > to quote a comment in thread. And, on the content, HN isn’t filled with indifferent people. But we need to have places for politics and places to avoid politics. Indifference is different from deference—deference to the context.

nonrandomstring 5y ago

This is a great Gramsci quote. As far as hacker politics goes, it applies well to the intellectual sloth of technological determinism, which Veblem and McLuhan criticised in different ways, and Postman called the most abject form of surrender. I assume that readers here do not fall into such ambivalence, since the very nature of a hacker is to believe in the ability to meaningfully create and change technology. I consider it part of our mission to help others overcome the shrugging, cargo-cult acceptance of whatever tech falls into our laps and take the active path to designing and using technology toward a better future for humans. Inescapably, a part of holding values must be stopping some people from using tech in disagreeable ways. And since people are guaranteed to disagree on matters, technology is a new arena of politics and not something that can exist separately from it.

nonrandomstring 5y ago
Always disappointing when people lack the comportment and courage to formulate a persuasive challenge. :(

jasfi 5y ago

When you ignore politics, you may one day realize that you shouldn't have when a serious political issue is right at your door and it's too late. This includes tech-related politics.

kortilla 5y ago

A loudmouth who has opinions about everything is useless. I’ll take someone who is indifferent about things they have no well reasoned opinion on.

giantg2 5y ago

"Those who really live cannot help being a citizen and a partisan. Indifference and apathy are parasitism, perversion, not life. That is why I hate the indifferent." It's sort of hinting at a false dichotomy here. You don't have to be partisan to be engaged. There are many nuanced positions and ideas. Perhaps the author lived in a different time or place that doesn't have two main parties acting the way they do today.

etherael 5y ago
Loathe to wade into a political fray on that subject but will just point out that the author was an adherent of the political ideology responsible for the most deaths in the last century. It's hard to believe that the world would not have been better off if a significant number of those ideological adherents were indifferent, even if just as a moderating influence.
- watwut 5y ago
  Russia was country with super politically apathetic citizens for decades. That attitude was inherited from communism and led to now - heavily authoritarian stayed with no meaningful internal opposition. Indifferent people are not moderating influence. They easily end up enablers of whoever is the most aggressive one.

batch12 5y ago

These are the kinds of opinions people use to try and radicalize others. In the end, this only serves to reinforce an 'us vs them' perspective on anything someone loud enough signals as important. The texture of nuance is sanded down until there is only Right and Wrong. Now, whoever doesn't hold each of the same endorsed partisan beliefs is the Enemy.

eevilspock 5y ago
Gramsci is talking about indifference, not a particular political position. Are you suggesting arguing against indifference is "radical"? Aren't you in your characterization labeling someone the Enemy?
- batch12 5y ago
  I am saying that the argument that a side must be selected is misused to apply to everything. This has devolved into a checklist of ideas that must be actively endorsed. > Aren't you in your characterization labeling someone the Enemy? Those who promote this ideology are enemies of us all. Edit: The discussion of politics is now the parroting of endorsed talking points. There is no unique or independent thought and it isn't interesting.